Rank and organization: Lieutenant Colonel (then Captain), 2d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division, World War II. Place and date: Renouf, France, 14 June to 3 September 1944. Entered service at: Fort Bragg, North Carolina, 2 July 1941. Date and place of birth: 25 August 1919, Buffalo, New York. Lieutenant Colonel (then Captain) Matt Urban, l 12-22-2414, United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of bold, heroic actions, exemplified by singularly outstanding combat leadership, personal bravery, and tenacious devotion to duty, during the period 14 June to 3 September 1944 while assigned to the 2d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division. On 14 June, Captain Urban's company, attacking at Renouf, France, encountered heavy enemy small arms and tank fire. The enemy tanks were unmercifully raking his unit's positions and inflicting heavy casualties. Captain Urban, realizing that his company was in imminent danger of being decimated, armed himself with a bazooka. He worked his way with an ammo carrier through hedgerows, under a continuing barrage of fire, to a point near the tanks. He brazenly exposed himself to the enemy fire and, firing the bazooka, destroyed both tanks. Responding to Captain Urban's action, his company moved forward and routed the enemy. Later that same day, still in the attack near Orglandes, Captain Urban was wounded in the leg by direct fire from a 37mm tank-gun. He refused evacuation and continued to lead his company until they moved into defensive positions for the night. At 0500 hours the next day, still in the attack near Orglandes, Captain Urban, though badly wounded, directed his company in another attack. One hour later he was again wounded. Suffering from two wounds, one serious, he was evacuated to England. In mid-July, while recovering from his wounds, he learned of his unit's severe losses in the hedgerows of Normandy. Realizing his unit's need for battle-tested leaders, he voluntarily left the hospital and hitchhiked his way back to his unit hear St. Lo, France. Arriving at the 2d Battalion Command Post at 1130 hours, 25 July, he found that his unit had jumped-off at 1100 hours in the first attack of Operation Cobra." Still limping from his leg wound, Captain Urban made his way forward to retake command of his company. He found his company held up by strong enemy opposition. Two supporting tanks had been destroyed and another, intact but with no tank commander or gunner, was not moving. He located a lieutenant in charge of the support tanks and directed a plan of attack to eliminate the enemy strong-point. The lieutenant and a sergeant were immediately killed by the heavy enemy fire when they tried to mount the tank. Captain Urban, though physically hampered by his leg wound and knowing quick action had to be taken, dashed through the scathing fire and mounted the tank. With enemy bullets ricocheting from the tank, Captain Urban ordered the tank forward and, completely exposed to the enemy fire, manned the machine gun and placed devastating fire on the enemy. His action, in the face of enemy fire, galvanized the battalion into action and they attacked and destroyed the enemy position. On 2 August, Captain Urban was wounded in the chest by shell fragments and, disregarding the recommendation of the Battalion Surgeon, again refused evacuation. On 6 August, Captain Urban became the commander of the 2d Battalion. On 15 August, he was again wounded but remained with his unit. On 3 September, the 2d Battalion was given the mission of establishing a crossing-point on the Meuse River near Heer, Belgium. The enemy planned to stop the advance of the allied Army by concentrating heavy forces at the Meuse. The 2d Battalion, attacking toward the crossing-point, encountered fierce enemy artillery, small arms and mortar fire which stopped the attack. Captain Urban quickly moved from his command post to the lead position of the battalion. Reorganizing the attacking elements, he personally led a charge toward the enemy's strong-point. As the charge moved across the open terrain, Captain Urban was seriously wounded in the neck. Although unable to talk above a whisper from the paralyzing neck wound, and in danger of losing his life, he refused to be evacuated until the enemy was routed and his battalion had secured the crossing-point on the Meuse River. Captain Urban's personal leadership, limitless bravery, and repeated extraordinary exposure to enemy fire served as an inspiration to his entire battalion. His valorous and intrepid actions reflect the utmost credit on him and uphold the noble traditions of the United States.
Rank and organization: Technical Sergeant, U.S. Army Air Corps. 358th Bomber Squadron, 303d Bomber Group. Place and date. Over Bremen, Germany, 20 December 1943. Entered service at: Rochester, N.Y. Born: 29 July 1923, Lyndonville, N.Y. G.O. No.: 73, 6 September 1944. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry in action against the enemy above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a radio operator-air gunner on a heavy bombardment aircraft in a mission over Bremen, Germany, on 20 December 1943. After bombing the target, the aircraft in which T/Sgt. Vosler was serving was severely damaged by antiaircraft fire, forced out of formation, and immediately subjected to repeated vicious attacks by enemy fighters. Early in the engagement a 20-mm. cannon shell exploded in the radio compartment, painfully wounding T/Sgt. Vosler in the legs and thighs. At about the same time a direct hit on the tail of the ship seriously wounded the tail gunner and rendered the tail guns inoperative. Realizing the great need for firepower in protecting the vulnerable tail of the ship, T/Sgt. Vosler, with grim determination, kept up a steady stream of deadly fire. Shortly thereafter another 20-mm. enemy shell exploded, wounding T/Sgt. Vosler in the chest and about the face. Pieces of metal lodged in both eyes, impairing his vision to such an extent that he could only distinguish blurred shapes. Displaying remarkable tenacity and courage, he kept firing his guns and declined to take first-aid treatment. The radio equipment had been rendered inoperative during the battle, and when the pilot announced that he would have to ditch, although unable to see and working entirely by touch, T/Sgt. Vosler finally got the set operating and sent out distress signals despite several lapses into unconsciousness. When the ship ditched, T/Sgt. Vosler managed to get out on the wing by himself and hold the wounded tail gunner from slipping off until the other crewmembers could help them into the dinghy. T/Sgt. Vosler's actions on this occasion were an inspiration to all serving with him. The extraordinary courage, coolness, and skill he displayed in the face of great odds, when handicapped by injuries that would have incapacitated the average crewmember, were outstanding.
Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company L, 15th Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Sigolsheim, France, 27 December 1944. Entered service at: Georgetown, Tex. Birth: Florence, Tex. G.O. No.: 79, 14 September 1945. Citation: While leading his platoon on 27 December 1944, in savage house-to-house fighting through the fortress town of Sigolsheim, France, he attacked a building through a street swept by withering mortar and automatic weapons fire. He was hit and severely wounded in the arm and shoulder; but he charged into the house alone and killed its 2 defenders. Hurling smoke and fragmentation grenades before him, he reached the next house and stormed inside, killing 2 and capturing 11 of the enemy. He continued leading his platoon in the extremely dangerous task of clearing hostile troops from strong points along the street until he reached a building held by fanatical Nazi troops. Although suffering from wounds which had rendered his left arm useless, he advanced on this strongly defended house, and after blasting out a wall with bazooka fire, charged through a hail of bullets. Wedging his submachinegun under his uninjured arm, he rushed into the house through the hole torn by his rockets, killed 5 of the enemy and forced the remaining 12 to surrender. As he emerged to continue his fearless attack, he was again hit and critically wounded. In agony and with 1 eye pierced by a shell fragment, he shouted for his men to follow him to the next house. He was determined to stay in the fighting, and remained at the head of his platoon until forcibly evacuated. By his disregard for personal safety, his aggressiveness while suffering from severe wounds, his determined leadership and superb courage, 1st Lt. Whiteley killed 9 Germans, captured 23 more and spearheaded an attack which cracked the core of enemy resistance in a vital area.
Healing must be able to account for the repair of severe physical insult.
Honestly, I think that this is the key to the entire discussion. Why does healing have to repair severe physical insult? Why can it not just ignore it?
"insult?" Fruedian slip, perhaps?
No, just jargon. I should have avoided using it though.
Healing must be able to account for the repair of severe physical insult.
Honestly, I think that this is the key to the entire discussion. Why does healing have to repair severe physical insult? Why can it not just ignore it?
I took a whirl through the Medal of Honor archives to prove my point.
Rank and organization: Lieutenant Colonel (then Captain), 2d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division, World War II. Place and date: Renouf, France, 14 June to 3 September 1944. Entered service at: Fort Bragg, North Carolina, 2 July 1941. Date and place of birth: 25 August 1919, Buffalo, New York. Lieutenant Colonel (then Captain) Matt Urban, l 12-22-2414, United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of bold, heroic actions, exemplified by singularly outstanding combat leadership, personal bravery, and tenacious devotion to duty, during the period 14 June to 3 September 1944 while assigned to the 2d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division. On 14 June, Captain Urban's company, attacking at Renouf, France, encountered heavy enemy small arms and tank fire. The enemy tanks were unmercifully raking his unit's positions and inflicting heavy casualties. Captain Urban, realizing that his company was in imminent danger of being decimated, armed himself with a bazooka. He worked his way with an ammo carrier through hedgerows, under a continuing barrage of fire, to a point near the tanks. He brazenly exposed himself to the enemy fire and, firing the bazooka, destroyed both tanks. Responding to Captain Urban's action, his company moved forward and routed the enemy. Later that same day, still in the attack near Orglandes, Captain Urban was wounded in the leg by direct fire from a 37mm tank-gun. He refused evacuation and continued to lead his company until they moved into defensive positions for the night. At 0500 hours the next day, still in the attack near Orglandes, Captain Urban, though badly wounded, directed his company in another attack. One hour later he was again wounded. Suffering from two wounds, one serious, he was evacuated to England. In mid-July, while recovering from his wounds, he learned of his unit's severe losses in the hedgerows of Normandy. Realizing his unit's need for battle-tested leaders, he voluntarily left the hospital and hitchhiked his way back to his unit hear St. Lo, France. Arriving at the 2d Battalion Command Post at 1130 hours, 25 July, he found that his unit had jumped-off at 1100 hours in the first attack of Operation Cobra." Still limping from his leg wound, Captain Urban made his way forward to retake command of his company. He found his company held up by strong enemy opposition. Two supporting tanks had been destroyed and another, intact but with no tank commander or gunner, was not moving. He located a lieutenant in charge of the support tanks and directed a plan of attack to eliminate the enemy strong-point. The lieutenant and a sergeant were immediately killed by the heavy enemy fire when they tried to mount the tank. Captain Urban, though physically hampered by his leg wound and knowing quick action had to be taken, dashed through the scathing fire and mounted the tank. With enemy bullets ricocheting from the tank, Captain Urban ordered the tank forward and, completely exposed to the enemy fire, manned the machine gun and placed devastating fire on the enemy. His action, in the face of enemy fire, galvanized the battalion into action and they attacked and destroyed the enemy position. On 2 August, Captain Urban was wounded in the chest by shell fragments and, disregarding the recommendation of the Battalion Surgeon, again refused evacuation. On 6 August, Captain Urban became the commander of the 2d Battalion. On 15 August, he was again wounded but remained with his unit. On 3 September, the 2d Battalion was given the mission of establishing a crossing-point on the Meuse River near Heer, Belgium. The enemy planned to stop the advance of the allied Army by concentrating heavy forces at the Meuse. The 2d Battalion, attacking toward the crossing-point, encountered fierce enemy artillery, small arms and mortar fire which stopped the attack. Captain Urban quickly moved from his command post to the lead position of the battalion. Reorganizing the attacking elements, he personally led a charge toward the enemy's strong-point. As the charge moved across the open terrain, Captain Urban was seriously wounded in the neck. Although unable to talk above a whisper from the paralyzing neck wound, and in danger of losing his life, he refused to be evacuated until the enemy was routed and his battalion had secured the crossing-point on the Meuse River. Captain Urban's personal leadership, limitless bravery, and repeated extraordinary exposure to enemy fire served as an inspiration to his entire battalion. His valorous and intrepid actions reflect the utmost credit on him and uphold the noble traditions of the United States.
Rank and organization: Technical Sergeant, U.S. Army Air Corps. 358th Bomber Squadron, 303d Bomber Group. Place and date. Over Bremen, Germany, 20 December 1943. Entered service at: Rochester, N.Y. Born: 29 July 1923, Lyndonville, N.Y. G.O. No.: 73, 6 September 1944. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry in action against the enemy above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a radio operator-air gunner on a heavy bombardment aircraft in a mission over Bremen, Germany, on 20 December 1943. After bombing the target, the aircraft in which T/Sgt. Vosler was serving was severely damaged by antiaircraft fire, forced out of formation, and immediately subjected to repeated vicious attacks by enemy fighters. Early in the engagement a 20-mm. cannon shell exploded in the radio compartment, painfully wounding T/Sgt. Vosler in the legs and thighs. At about the same time a direct hit on the tail of the ship seriously wounded the tail gunner and rendered the tail guns inoperative. Realizing the great need for firepower in protecting the vulnerable tail of the ship, T/Sgt. Vosler, with grim determination, kept up a steady stream of deadly fire. Shortly thereafter another 20-mm. enemy shell exploded, wounding T/Sgt. Vosler in the chest and about the face. Pieces of metal lodged in both eyes, impairing his vision to such an extent that he could only distinguish blurred shapes. Displaying remarkable tenacity and courage, he kept firing his guns and declined to take first-aid treatment. The radio equipment had been rendered inoperative during the battle, and when the pilot announced that he would have to ditch, although unable to see and working entirely by touch, T/Sgt. Vosler finally got the set operating and sent out distress signals despite several lapses into unconsciousness. When the ship ditched, T/Sgt. Vosler managed to get out on the wing by himself and hold the wounded tail gunner from slipping off until the other crewmembers could help them into the dinghy. T/Sgt. Vosler's actions on this occasion were an inspiration to all serving with him. The extraordinary courage, coolness, and skill he displayed in the face of great odds, when handicapped by injuries that would have incapacitated the average crewmember, were outstanding.
Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company L, 15th Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Sigolsheim, France, 27 December 1944. Entered service at: Georgetown, Tex. Birth: Florence, Tex. G.O. No.: 79, 14 September 1945. Citation: While leading his platoon on 27 December 1944, in savage house-to-house fighting through the fortress town of Sigolsheim, France, he attacked a building through a street swept by withering mortar and automatic weapons fire. He was hit and severely wounded in the arm and shoulder; but he charged into the house alone and killed its 2 defenders. Hurling smoke and fragmentation grenades before him, he reached the next house and stormed inside, killing 2 and capturing 11 of the enemy. He continued leading his platoon in the extremely dangerous task of clearing hostile troops from strong points along the street until he reached a building held by fanatical Nazi troops. Although suffering from wounds which had rendered his left arm useless, he advanced on this strongly defended house, and after blasting out a wall with bazooka fire, charged through a hail of bullets. Wedging his submachinegun under his uninjured arm, he rushed into the house through the hole torn by his rockets, killed 5 of the enemy and forced the remaining 12 to surrender. As he emerged to continue his fearless attack, he was again hit and critically wounded. In agony and with 1 eye pierced by a shell fragment, he shouted for his men to follow him to the next house. He was determined to stay in the fighting, and remained at the head of his platoon until forcibly evacuated. By his disregard for personal safety, his aggressiveness while suffering from severe wounds, his determined leadership and superb courage, 1st Lt. Whiteley killed 9 Germans, captured 23 more and spearheaded an attack which cracked the core of enemy resistance in a vital area.
Granted, all three citations are cherry-picked to feature a soldier ignoring severe wounds, but the point still gets across. All three of these soldiers kept on fighting despite staggering wounds.
Why does healing have to repair injury? Why not allow it to ignore it?
Just like the Warlord. Just like these guys.
Those are/were some seriously tough men.
As I've mentioned several times in the past, I don't have a problem with martial healing per say. It's just Admiral_JCJF's insistence that it should be better in every way to magical healing I dislike.
As a counter argument to the above excellent examples you posted, I would point out that none of the above men simply slept off their wounds and were 100% fine in the morning ready to do it all over again in the next encounter. In fact they all required hopitalization. Even Captain Urban is unlikely to have been leading from the front by the end of that marathon, particularly not after becoming paralyzed. At some point, ignoring that kind of physical damage will become impossible.
Personally, I'd prefer someone to magic those injuries away completely if they happened to me.
Only Landro has managed to even engage with that point yet, not successfully, but at least he's trying to answer it.
I have refuted your argument successfully. You're just not listening. Which is fine.
There are a lot of us who will never be happy at the same table, the key is to ensure that we all have the options available to be able to run or play in the games we want.
I was going to go through another blow-by-blow post, but then I thought this was really the only important point in this argument.
We clearly disagree on a fundamental level on this issue. In fact we disagree on a great many fundamental levels and this is just one of them. That's fine too.
I’m not going to waste any more of my time “debating” with someone that doesn’t address the most inconvenient half my arguments. You’ve clearly dug your toes into the sand and no amount of discussion will sway you. Equally, you’ve got no chance of convincing me that your position is tenable. An immovable object has met an unstoppable force.
So I’m going back to studying for my finals now. Enjoy your peculiar fantasy.
Tony, for a guy that loved reflavoring and focusing on effects on 4e is weird to me that you are unable to understand this single cocncept. Cure spells heal hps, what your wounds model achieves is to provide a mathematical unbalanced healing. Narrations are fine use them as you will but for people crying for balance in everything its funny to see how ready you are to handwave it in healing when it suits you. If you really cared about your narrations and healing model insert it in a balanced way then make the same adjudjements. Say that low hit point classes will get dr reductions from the same sources because they are intelligent enough to see them coming or find ways to avoid them, wise/insightful enough to predict them or intimidating/charismatic enough to avoid them. Insert dr reductions according to your imbalanced healing surges and you are good to go.
Admiral, you havent answered my comments of your realistic examples. You ignored my comments on magical healing as well. You are taking a coma exmple to prove your argument. A comatose condition like that is already a stabilised condition in dnd, you are not dying in the next minute. Why is that different from my suggestion? Stabilise first, inspire later?
Ogiwan, once again please read our opinions. You say warlords are able to inspire you so you can ignore wounds, but the wounds are there ofc they didnt leave. We all agree to that. So how we represent that in dnd? If a guy has 50 hps and a wound dropped him to 25, and then the warlord insired him to ignore it what do you think is the better format? 50hps first/25hp with the wound and then 50 hps again with shouting? Where did the wound go? Or 50hps/25hps with the wounds and then 25 (+25) with shouting? Imo the latter is a better representation that you are able to ignore the wound but the wound is there. Noone here sais that the warlord should not motivate folks to carry on. We say that he should not be able to heal as if the wounds disappear like magic.
The other issue with inspiration. You are able to ignore them, sure. For how long? With the first option is forever, the second has a duration before you must adress your wounds and recover.
Modular options for those who agree that the genre beyond D&D suggests a model for healing which is not currently supported.
Also... lol at the idea that anyone has refuted my argument successfully. You've brought one relevant example, which I immediately countered and you then declared yourself the winner. Nice, but a pity that's not how logical argument works. You too might want to bone up on it a little.
The example given wasn't intended as an answer to any and all discussion, simply to point out that in the real world inspiration can and has reached people who were unconscious after taking grave wounds and awoken them.
I'm happy to discuss the specifics of how that works, though I utterly reject the "bonus on death saving throws" concept as a pathetic insult. Even "temp HP" is less offensive and I've thrown that back in the face of everyone who has suggested it.
Perhaps non-magical healing will have two different mechanisims, one for rousing characters from unconsciousness and another for restoring HP to conscious characters. THAT sounds reasonable.
And as to the "how long can you ignore wounds for?" issue... days, and sometimes (as with real heros) with few to no consequences.
Ok I tried to offer my best suggestions. Personally I think the warlord I suggested looks cool and equal but different to cleric. If you guys want your heroes to carry wounds for as long as they like and piling up some more indefinately without a second thought, who am I to say no to your believability checks and fun? Module away, or I'll houserule away. If it is a 4e must win thing I have no interest in keeping up with that discussion. Anyways, I hope we can all have warlord alternatives we can use. Thanks for the debate folks.
It's just Admiral_JCJF's insistence that it should be better in every way to magical healing I dislike.
Oh I'm right there with you. Magical healing and martial healing, and primal, shadow, or whatever other method of healing we can come up with, should all be equally effective.
Hm. Now I wonder if Admiral_JCJF's position of martial healing should be better than magical healing is just a satire of those who argue that magical healing should be better than martial healing.....
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling
Defenders: We ARE the wall!
I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.
Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!
It's just Admiral_JCJF's insistence that it should be better in every way to magical healing I dislike.
Oh I'm right there with you. Magical healing and martial healing, and primal, shadow, or whatever other method of healing we can come up with, should all be equally effective.
Hm. Now I wonder if Admiral_JCJF's position of martial healing should be better than magical healing is just a satire of those who argue that magical healing should be better than martial healing.....
I'm mostly pointing out that a coherent and effective argument can be made for the exact opposite position.
Thus any and all "negotiation" must meet in the ACTUAL middle, equal effectiveness for all modes of healing.
Though, as this thread has progressed I've been less and less impressed by the attempted counter-arguments (which I expected to be more numerous and better) which has actually convinced me of my original thesis.
But I'm still happy to negotiate... just not to the self-serving "compromises" which the anti-non-magical healing set have been attempting to foist on us to satisfy their own petty personal agendas while ignoring the inclusive intent of Next.
