Just a few things, one I absolutley love this build to the point I've been toying around with a couple of my own now, secondly I had never heard of kenku or seen anyone in my group use the kenku before, finally I think I'm gonna go in for something completely different, I really want to see the other 2 but the mystery of something different intrigues me
Stand Still clearly invokes multiple move actions being shut down. It makes absolutely no sense it all for it to work like you think, Tempest. In your circumstance, if you are stand stilled, you just give up your standard action for another move action, and since you already provoked for movement, unless they have Thicket, you get away scott free. Net result, worthless feat.
So, no. 'Used up all your move actionS for the turn'. The turn ends for you when your new turn begins. Until the beginning of your turn, your move actions are used up, period. IT doesn't matter where they come from, and certainly not from declaring something as lame as a double move. And if a double move don't work, making a move out of nothing, then Hustle and AoO steps, which also make moves out of nothing, will also not work.
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I also don't agree on your interpretation of Evasive Reflexes kicking in when you can't possibly make an AoO. If you can't take an AoO, there's no way this could proc off. Provoking allows you to take an AoO if you can reach the enemy...if you can't, it's just useless. Evasive Reflexes doesn't trigger on provoke...it triggers on being able to make an AoO. being out of reach makes being able to make that AoO impossible, no trigger. Note that AoO's that can trigger when you can't reach an enemy, like Close Quarters Fighting, expressly state that they activate even if you can't normally reach the foe. There's no language supporting what you are trying to do...you are trying to get support 'in absentia', because there's nothing saying you can't.
Which is reading wildly into the rules, and gets into all sorts of problems.
Secondly, while I can see the logic of off turn movement to evade combat, using it to move around IN combat seems to me to be...detrimental. Seriously, you'd rather take a 5' step then SMASH INTO POWDER PUNY HUMAN WHO JUST HIT ME? At full BAB>?
I mean, the theory is nice, but...why?
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I've seen you take feats you don't like and rework them in other threads; I'm curious what your wording would be (given how the intended effect is pretty clear - an AoO due to movement should end that movement).
I don't think there's a problem with its resolution mechanic either (no-damage, but roll damage and use as Reflex DC).
For what it's worth, my take would be "Or immediately stop moving. He cannot make further movement this turn unless he spends the actions to do so (which may provoke another Stand Still from you)."
Going from the relevant sentence and using that interpretation (stopping movement only for the current action:
"If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt, ending all movement from his current action. Your foe may still use any other actions he has remaining in order to move (which may provoke another attack of opportunity from you)."
For the minimalist version of that, you could also end the sentence at "halt". Without any further clarification, it would simply be an immediate stop of their current movement without any other particular consequences. The official version starts to stumble because it begins talking about the actions used to perform the movement when those actions don't always have a specific form. To achieve the result described by the standard text, you could state:
"If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt, ending all movement from his current action. Your foe cannot perform any further movement this round with his normal allotment of actions (though any extra actions he gains do not suffer this restriction)."
The only real difference required in this case is in the clarifying sentence. If the text here wasn't describing the "normal" allotment of actions and making an exception for extra actions, it would simply apply to all movement, regardless of source.
While it's possible to write it to cover all movement, even that achieved with extra actions (again just by changing that clarifying sentence), that would seem strange for a non-supernatural feat. Confounding their full sequence of normal movement by blocking them at a single point is one thing, since their normal actions represent a continuum of conventional motion, while extra actions gained through magical means and whatnot go beyond that.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I like the clarification sentences. Be nice if they had been used.
I consider movement spun out of nowhere to be no different then changing your mind and swapping your standard action for a second movement. It's ALL 'constant movement'. You can't make the argument that because it suddenly exists where it didn't a moment before, that it is fundamentally different then deciding not to cast a spell and moving away again. It's all still 'movement', and it's all being applied post-Stand Still.
Either Stand Still is useless at locking people in, because they can ignore it by just CHANGING THEIR MINDS, or it simply locks them down and prevents movement, regardless of the source.
Extra movement from AoO's and spells isn't any different then extra movement from choice. It's all supposed to be part of the continuous stream, and Stand Still should lock you down. The best argument you could make would be there's a difference because it's 'off-turn', and that's a crutch.
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I consider movement spun out of nowhere to be no different then changing your mind and swapping your standard action for a second movement. It's ALL 'constant movement'. You can't make the argument that because it suddenly exists where it didn't a moment before, that it is fundamentally different then deciding not to cast a spell and moving away again. It's all still 'movement', and it's all being applied post-Stand Still.
I think you can make that argument for something like hustle, since it really does appear out of nowhere when you manifest the power.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
And Stand Still isn't useless if you allow trading into extra move actions either - you just cut their first move action short, and if they plan on escaping, they give up their standard action as well as run the risk of you simply Stand Stilling them again.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
And Stand Still isn't useless if you allow trading into extra move actions either - you just cut their first move action short, and if they plan on escaping, they give up their standard action as well as run the risk of you simply Stand Stilling them again.
The result kind of loses out to Improved Trip, though. If you trip them, they lose their movement, fall prone, and you get another chance at hitting them with the bonus against a prone target, plus an additional attack of opportunity if they try to get up (and it's likewise against a prone target). If you halt them with Stand Still, they only lose movement.
Stand Still may possibly be easier to achieve (Improved Trip has more prerequisites and there are more modifiers against its opposed check, but there are favourable modifiers as well, and it starts out with a touch attack rather than a regular attack), but Improved Trip is a significantly better effect. You'd really have to look at the numbers involved to determine how they measure up against each other, but an effect that (hypothetically) denies one normal move action has a lot of ground to make up against one that denies all normal movement and allows you to get one or two easy attacks on your foe.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Well, there are things which can't be tripped, and things with many legs and so forth. Still, I've never been a massive fan of Stand Still. It could be quite useful with Defensive Rebuke, mind.
I think this could work quite nicely just in melee, with a reach weapon - and Thicket of Blades - actually. If the foe is adjacent to your ally but not you, they can attack your ally (suffering an AoO) or step towards you, at which point Thicket triggers so you just step away. Presumably they can turn that step into a full move (can they?) and provoke again... in which case you could just keep moving away (but you'd run out of AoOs) or just hit them, but only suffer one attack and not a full set. If you're positioned right, they'd also provoke from your ally for moving away from them. You could certainly screw with people a lot.
Secondly, while I can see the logic of off turn movement to evade combat, using it to move around IN combat seems to me to be...detrimental. Seriously, you'd rather take a 5' step then SMASH INTO POWDER PUNY HUMAN WHO JUST HIT ME? At full BAB>?
Well, firstly you're just choosing a defensive tactic rather than an offensive one. Secondly, in this case you're charging Skirmish. By giving up an AoO at full BAB, you get to make a full attack next round with full Skirmish charged.
Nothing stops you from having both, and in fact they work well together.
You can't use them simultaneously, but it's really more about a comparison of their general effectiveness (if you were to limit Stand Still to only stopping the current movement) when choosing one or the other, whether that's for an overall build or just for a given attack of opportunity.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
