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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:13AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2011
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Would it be better if I made it so if the PC's decided to continue the approach down the hallway, they found the hydra fast asleep?
Possibly. What's your ultimate design goal here? Do you want them to solve a problem without resorting to hack-n-slash?
Yes. And teach them that some situations can't be solved by hack'n'slash, and when they try to, they need to run away if they want to survive.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:16AM
#12
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Yes. And teach them that some situations can't be solved by hack'n'slash, and when they try to, they need to run away if they want to survive.
There's no sure way to do this in-game. In the attempt, you can end up looking pretty bad and straining the trust of your players. "Teaching them" is not a good approach in my experience. It carries great risk.
You can get the scene you want, however, by framing it, along with their help. Let them know - "Hey, guys, this hydra isn't something you're going to be able to defeat with your weapons. You're going to need to use your wits if you want that sweet, sweet treasure. Now, here's the sitch (cleary explain the goals, stakes, and location details). What do you do?"
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:18AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2009
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if you really want to teach the PCs that they need to run away sometimes, please believe the collective wisdom of the DM forums that an impossible fight is NOT the way.
Possible working ways might include:
- A tough fight in a dungeon that leaves the players hurt and low or out of resources. The last monster of the enemies runs through a door saying "guys guys! intruders! Help!" and then the party immediately hears sounds of several more enemies strapping on shields and pulling weapons. The party has 1-2 rounds to run. They MIGHT win the following battle, they might get captured, a few of them might even die. Or they can run (worked for our party in "descent into undermountain" and we're habitually TERRIBLE at running away).
- A Macguffin the PCs must safeguard (person, fragile artifact, etc.) combined with really OBVIOUS enemy attacks at the macguffin. Have it take some damage. Have the enemies have a erason not to give chase (perhaps they have no REAL chance of defeating the PCs in straight up combat....15 minions works great here).
- Rooms with easy fights but repeatedly attacking traps (even weak ones) may force a party to pull back out of the room (in which case the monsters may not give chase) or flee from the fight eventually unless they can quickly spot the traps, the countermeasures, and attempt some of the countermeasures.
an unwinnable fight will not TEACH them to run away....at least not without likely murdering a character or five. remember, they can't read your mind, they don't know they can't win. If that isn't enough, even you telling them they can't win can cause problems.
"Keep Out" signs have got to be one of the most powerful attractive forces in the universe to humans (i'm talking the PLAYERS here, not the characters). All too often, people hear "you can't do that" and interpret it as "i dare you to do that!" Its just human nature.
While a TPK as a result of an impossible fight may teach them to run away, it will also breed strong mistrust and resentment towards you, the DM.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:23AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2011
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Yes. And teach them that some situations can't be solved by hack'n'slash, and when they try to, they need to run away if they want to survive.
There's no sure way to do this in-game. In the attempt, you can end up looking pretty bad and straining the trust of your players. "Teaching them" is not a good approach in my experience. It carries great risk.
You can get the scene you want, however, by framing it, along with their help. Let them know - "Hey, guys, this hydra isn't something you're going to be able to defeat with your weapons. You're going to need to use your wits if you want that sweet, sweet treasure. Now, here's the sitch (cleary explain the goals, stakes, and location details). What do you do?"
if you really want to teach the PCs that they need to run away sometimes, please believe the collective wisdom of the DM forums that an impossible fight is NOT the way.
Possible working ways might include:
- A tough fight in a dungeon that leaves the players hurt and low or out of resources. The last monster of the enemies runs through a door saying "guys guys! intruders! Help!" and then the party immediately hears sounds of several more enemies strapping on shields and pulling weapons. The party has 1-2 rounds to run. They MIGHT win the following battle, they might get captured, a few of them might even die. Or they can run (worked for our party in "descent into undermountain" and we're habitually TERRIBLE at running away).
- A Macguffin the PCs must safeguard (person, fragile artifact, etc.) combined with really OBVIOUS enemy attacks at the macguffin. Have it take some damage. Have the enemies have a erason not to give chase (perhaps they have no REAL chance of defeating the PCs in straight up combat....15 minions works great here).
- Rooms with easy fights but repeatedly attacking traps (even weak ones) may force a party to pull back out of the room (in which case the monsters may not give chase) or flee from the fight eventually unless they can quickly spot the traps, the countermeasures, and attempt some of the countermeasures.
an unwinnable fight will not TEACH them to run away....at least not without likely murdering a character or five. remember, they can't read your mind, they don't know they can't win. If that isn't enough, even you telling them they can't win can cause problems.
"Keep Out" signs have got to be one of the most powerful attractive forces in the universe to humans (i'm talking the PLAYERS here, not the characters). All too often, people hear "you can't do that" and interpret it as "i dare you to do that!" Its just human nature.
While a TPK as a result of an impossible fight may teach them to run away, it will also breed strong mistrust and resentment towards you, the DM.
What if I were to say to the party that their characters recalled legends and information about how powerful hydras were, and the CHARACTERS knew that they couldn't fight it? Would that be fair?
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:27AM
#15
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What if I were to say to the party that their characters recalled legends and information about how powerful hydras were, and the CHARACTERS knew that they couldn't fight it? Would that be fair?
Sure, though I don't see how that's any different from just letting the players know it's not a battle they can win through force and letting them decide how their own characters also know this.
I wouldn't even use a stat block for the hydra. It's irrelevant for the purposes of this scene.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:40AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2012
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If you're trying to get the players to solve a problem without resorting to combat, presenting them with a potential combat seems a bit of a screwy approach. A situation that doesn't have a brute force option like a skill challenge is a much better bet.
Getting players to run is incredibly hard for all the reasons mentioned above. Rather than trying to get them to flee in terror (which makes them look wimpy) just present them with an alternate goal where running is the better option and killing all the enemies doesn't mean victory (ie, a band of silt runners just drained the dungeon's cistern and are escaping through the backdoor with their waterskins while the oath wight guarding the cistern tries to stop the party from "stealing" the water that had already been stolen (because the wight's dying instructions were something along the lines of "Let no man touch our sacred well" and it doesn't recognize the silt runners as "men", or something of the like)).
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:42AM
#17
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If the PCs are not intended to fight, don't dress the scenario as a combat encounter. No minis or maps (if you use them), no rolling for initiative. Don't let them start a fight. If they attack, narrate the hydra effortlessly smacking the attacker back, maybe knocking him unconscious for a moment or two. "If it has stats, we can kill it," so don't present the hydra as if it has stats.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 10:44AM
#18
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Getting players to run is incredibly hard for all the reasons mentioned above. Rather than trying to get them to flee in terror (which makes them look wimpy) just present them with an alternate goal where running is the better option and killing all the enemies doesn't mean victory (ie, a band of silt runners just drained the dungeon's cistern and are escaping through the backdoor with their waterskins while the oath wight guarding the cistern tries to stop the party from "stealing" the water that had already been stolen (because the wight's dying instructions were something along the lines of "Let no man touch our sacred well" and it doesn't recognize the silt runners as "men", or something of the like)).
Very cool. Nice job.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 11:02AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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The question was "How can I make the party...?"
You can't. You can't "make the party" do anything. They might end up doing it, but it's probably because you got lucky, or because they know what you're trying to do and went along with it.
You also can't even "make" your encounters do a certain thing. There are plenty of stories in this forum about groups that either beat the DM's "unbeatable" encounter, or who found a loophole that the DM hadn't considered and wasn't sure how to keep them from using to beat the "unbeatable" encounter.
So, you can't make them run away, and you can't even make them regret not running away. It can happen, but you have next to no real control over it.
But players should fail sometimes, right? They can't beat everything. But we fall into the trap of thinking that if the players can't beat something then the only alternatives are for them to run away, be captured, or be killed. Those aren't the only alternatives. Look for ways that the players can lose without being killed. Look for ways the monsters can win without surviving the encounter.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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9 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 11:35AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2012
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I accomplished a similar task in a recent game: convincing the players to run away without telling them to, by including some obviously high powered NPCs who were promptly and easily dispatched by the monster. If the NPCs are already in the room dealing with the Hydra when your players enter, if the NPCs are bristling with armor and powers that clearly indicate that they are far more powerful than the PCs, then when the Hydra swiftly croaks one and eats another, the PCs SHOULD get the point.
If they don't I would probably allow them to engage, and even survive the encounter, but so would the additional powerful NPCs, and a powerful group of NPCs has no reason to share any loot with a bunch of low level green-horns.
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