|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 5:45AM
#21
|
Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
|
While the Free action rule say you can take Free actions on your turn and other combattant's turn and take as many as you want (at the DM's discretion), it doesn't say you can take Free actions during an attack and interrupt actions with them. Even the Devs themselves admitted that it was breaking some game elements.
So to resume: (The two statement below are 100% true and easily verifiable)
RAW Free actions doesn't say they can be taken during an attack (though some specific game element might)
RAI The Devs say Free actions cant be taken during an attack
Yan
Montréal, Canada
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 5:50AM
#22
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
While the Free action rule say you can take Free actions on your turn and other combattant's turn and take as many as you want (at the DM's discretion), it doesn't say you can take Free actions during an attack and interrupt actions with them.
It doesn't have to. Exception-based design. An attack on another monster's turn is still another monster's turn, and the rules apply.
Yes, this means that you get into the reactions-are-really-interrupts thing, but that's another discussion. It depends on when you evaluate the resolution of a free action, and that's something else entirely.
But you absolutely can take free actions during other actions.
To put your logic to another test, there's also no rule taht says you can take Free actions at night - would you argue that you can't?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 6:20AM
#23
|
Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
|
Its not exception based design by not saying what you claim it do, its absence of evidence. Exception based design would be to say that you can take as many Free actions as you want even though actions normally have limitations in usage frequency.
Triggered Actions are exception based design by specifically saying they can interrupt attacks for exemple. Free actions don't.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 6:29AM
#24
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
But the general rule doesn't have the restriction you describe, in any fashion whatsoever. How are you justifying a restriction that does not exist in the text? Are you really claiming that the general rule, which says when you can take free actions, doesn't apply in absence of an actual exception?
Please address my question about whether you can take free actions at night. It is not a rhetorical question.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 6:43AM
#25
|
Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
|
Yes you can take Free actions at night, because actions don't concern themselves with time of the day. But in this case actions do have precedent regarding action timing though. Some actions specifically say they can interrupt and so it means an action that doesn't say so do not interrupt. Interrupt are specific actions able to jump in when actions or event occurs, taking place before they finishes.
Not because there are actions saying they can Interrupt that an action saying it can be taken on other combattant's turn can interrupt as well if it doesn't also specifically say it can.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 7:05AM
#26
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
Yes you can take Free actions at night, because actions don't concern themselves with time of the day. But in this case actions do have precedent regarding action timing though.
Cite a rule, please. Because there's nothing in the rules for free actions that support your claim that I can see. Even the "actions on your turn" rule cannot possibly, under any interpretation, apply to times when it's not your turn.
Your entire argument seems to be that other powers say things, and that means there's a general rule that they're taking exception to. You cannot infer a general rule from specifics.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 7:20AM
#27
|
Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
|
Its more the other way around. Cite the rule saying Free actions can interrupt if you claim they do ? You think the Devs would have said what they did in the Podcast if Free actions said they could Interrupt ? Yes they can be taken on yours and other combattant's turns and yes you can take as many as you want. But they just can Interrupt because they don't say they can. In reality: Immediate actions say they can interrupt Opportunity Actions say they can interrupt Triggered Free/No action say they can interrupt Free actions doesn't say they can interrupt. Spoiler:
Show
Here's a transcription of the 4/6/2012 podcast (15 minutes in):
From the DDI Mailbag: Just how free are free actions… specifically the free action power of the Dwarven Armor daily power?(reference Dwarven armor daily power). When a wearer is hit, can he use free action between the attack roll and damage roll?
Mike Mearls: I believe that free actions can't take place in between things like attack roll and damage roll.
Jeremy Crawford: what you're getting at Mike is that in this case he could not use the power in between those two things because the power doesn't have a trigger. Basically the only powers in the game that can mess around with timing are powers with triggers, and then those triggers tell you when you get to break a rule. Because it doesn't say that, you have to use this as a discrete action; not interrupting other actions.
Mike: So it can't take place in the middle of another action.
Jeremy: Exactly.
Rodney Thompson: That may be true specifically for this action because it's the wearer using it between the phases of another character’s actions, but how does that account for the warden? We've said in the past that at any point during a move you can use a free action to mark and then continue that move.
Jeremy: That’s really a DM's call because the default assumption of the system is that the warden has to do it before the move action or at the end of it. Actions don't divide each other up (later) in my campaign I have a Warden and I let him do exactly what you describe: he can interrupt himself. It’s just that by the rules: we're breaking the rules. But this is what D&D is about. (later) Early on in the process we didn't have a concept of no action. If we were going to do this power now, it wouldn't be a free action.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 7:26AM
#28
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
How you resolve the timing of the free action is something entirely different, as I said before. Alcestis is being consistent in stating they interrupt, it agrees with the position that immediate reactions can interrupt as well (and yes, Alcestis, I am not using the 'entire action is lost' meaning, but rather the more colloquial 'make the attack not work' meaning. Please don't pick the nits, I'm using the terminology Plaguescarred is using). I disagree with that premise, but there really isn't a rule that specifies how the timing of non-triggered free actions resolve. The most straightfoward extrapolation is to apply the same rules as triggered free actions, and have non-triggered free actions resolve as reactions. But there aren't rules that say that - it is, as I said, an extrapolation. There aren't any rules that actually explicitly cover what it means for things to resolve, and there really should be.
But the rules do say that you can use free actions during an attack on another creature's turn. Regardless of the impact on whatever else is going on, you simply cannot dispute this fact.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 7:29AM
#29
|
Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
|
the rules do say that you can use free actions during an attack on another creature's turn.
Rule citation please.
If Free action rules would say that, there would be no debates and n podcast from the Devs saying otherwise. Things said in the rules usually don't make up subject of debates. Only (mis)interpretation of things not said generally do. 
Yan
Montréal, Canada
|
|
|
|
8 months ago ::
Oct 19, 2012 - 7:31AM
#30
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
I've stated it several times. The general free action rule, and the absence of any specific rule that contradicts that general rule.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
