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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 11:47AM
#11
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Wasn't it stated that a free action taken during someone else's turn acts as a reaction unless acting as an interrupt is the only way the free action could do anything.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 12:59PM
#12
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(Note: I edited your post for clarity. Correct me if I altered your intent)
Well, since part of the intent was to remind Plague he is knowingly lying about what the rules actually say, yeah, you did.
@Plauge: That would be all the game elements that are non-triggered free actions since you can take free actions whenever you want, so yeah Forceful Push qualifies.
@Mirtek: Only applies to triggered free actions. We are discussing non-triggered free actions, which you can take whenever you want.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 1:09PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Wasn't it stated that a free action taken during someone else's turn acts as a reaction unless acting as an interrupt is the only way the free action could do anything.
RC p.197: "If an effect has a Trigger and is neither an Immediate Action nor an Opportunity Action, assume that it behaves like an immediate Reaction, waiting for its Trigger to resolves. However, ignore this guideline when the effect has to interrupt its Trigger to function."
I believe they are debating non-triggered free actions though.
(Arr... ninja'd)
We are discussing non-triggered free actions, which you can take whenever you want.
Would you allow them to act like interrupts?
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 1:21PM
#14
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Would you allow them to act like interrupts?
Kind of a nonsense question. Interrupts can invalidate their trigger and, if they do, the entire triggering action is lost. That is significantly different from being allowed to take a free action whenever you want. They can't invalidate anything, anything that has already happened when you take the free action has happened.
But there are plenty of ways that things that aren't interrupts can hamper actions/choices/etc. Nearly all of those methods work with non-triggered free actions.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 1:28PM
#15
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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@Alcestis: Game elements that specifically trump the general rules on Free actions would not be any non-triggered Free actions, it would be Free actions that specifically say they can be taken during other actions ex. Reload (free)
I thought you were saying you could use Forceful Push when an enemy attacks you to Slide him out of reach and invalidate the attack on you, thus interrupt it, or in this case discussed by the OP, delfect a missile out of trajectory to cause a miss on your after it has launched, but before it landed, also interrupting the attack ?
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 1:42PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Interrupts can invalidate their trigger and, if they do, the entire triggering action is lost. That is significantly different from being allowed to take a free action whenever you want.
You said "whenever", which semantically might include 'when something occurs, but before that something finishes' (i.e. similar to "An immediate interrupt jumps in when its trigger occurs, taking place before the trigger finishes"). I was merely establishing your limits to "whenever".
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 2:16PM
#17
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@Alcestis: Game elements that specifically trump the general rules on Free actions would not be any non-triggered Free actions, it would be Free actions that specifically say they can be taken during other actions ex. Reload (free)
I thought you were saying you could use Forceful Push when an enemy attacks you to Slide him out of reach and invalidate the attack on you, thus interrupt it, or in this case discussed by the OP, delfect a missile out of trajectory to cause a miss on your after it has launched, but before it landed, also interrupting the attack ?
Except SvG requires explication. There is no explication, in any of those elements, because the rule is that you can take free actions in the middle of other actions and so there doesn't need to be. So either you break dozens of game elements and ignore the rules, or you're wrong. Mmmm, tough call. Gonna have to go with you're wrong and you actually do have to listen to the rules.
Was that the question? No. Did I say that? No. Reading helps you not fail to understand things and make wrong statements, should try it.
@mvincent: Even if you allowed that, and an argument could be made, it still wouldn't be an interrupt. You'd merely invalidate the trigger, you wouldn't lose the entire action. That is a very important distinction.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 6:03PM
#18
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By "break dozens of game elements", Alcistis means "characters at my tables do it, and it would make our characters less overpowered if we were unable to do it."
There's plenty of things in the game that do nothing due to rules changes, so you can either pretend they still work and move on with your life, follow the new rules to the letter and have a handful of things that don't work, or cheat and have your version of the rules allow for those things and "dozens" of other things become broken.
Or, as we say, Expect Table Variation.
(fwiw, I wouldn't allow it at my tables, because not only doesn't it work, it's not supposed to work)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
Show
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 6:34PM
#19
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No, I meant breaks dozens of game elements, because that is what it does. ^.^ Starting with returning magical thrown weapons for multi-attacks being uncatchable as the obvious example, but there are quite a lot of them. Unless you think being allowed to do things the rules say you can do is somehow "overpowered." Which is an asinine argument, btw, whether something is overpowered or not has no bearing on what the rules are. And the rules for non-triggered free actions have never been changed, except for the one caveat about attack powers, so what you said makes no sense.
It is interesting you'd play by a houserule which breaks dozens of game elements. Thanks for sharing? Do you think that is somehow relevant....?
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8 months ago ::
Oct 18, 2012 - 8:55PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Plague, we've presented you the rule that says you can use free actions:  Free Action: A creature can take free actions on its own or anyone else’s turn. Because most free actions require at least a small amount of time, the DM can restrict the number of free actions a creature can take during a round. Published in Rules Compendium, page(s) 28. This is the general rule. If you disagree that this is the general rule...then I'm not entirely sure why you'd do that, and you'd have to explain. The question you then ask to adjudicate the rules are, then: Is it my turn? Y/N Is it anyone else's turn? Y/N The answer to the presented question is Yes to the second one. Ok, so the general rule says you can use a free action during the circumstance presented. We then state that yes, the general rule applies, but is there anything specific? And the answer is no. Unless you can point to an actual rule, in the actual text of the game, that indicates an exception to that general rule, then the general rule stands. And there is nothing you have presented thus far that prevents it. The power itself does not need to provide an exception, because the general rule is applying.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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