Quick ? Can you use Telekinesis to catch or deflect incoming Missile fire? if the target held it's initiative and could activate it's power as a free action?
nothing in the rules says you can and nothing says you can't. So this would actually be a DM fiat question, ergo ask your DM to see if he/she is ok with it. Don't forget though that the DM is allowed to limit how many free actions per turn you are allowed to make. Meaning if there's 10 arrows flying at you, he could allow you to roll an attack on say 2 or 3 of them to see if you deflect but not all of them since you ran out of free actions. Anyway I wouldn't say no simply because of the Rule of Cool(TM) which I use to allow things that should not normally work because they are awesome or involve fun roleplay.
Like I said best to ask your DM, it won't matter if I have or not if your DM says no. hehe.
I never heard it used that way.
Forceful Push targets one creature and its at the DM's discretion wether a power can target an object or not. (RC 105)
Also, its a non-Triggered Free action, and the Free action rules don't really say they can be taken during an ongoing attack, in a manner to Interrupt it and deflect the missile before it lands and deal damage.
FWIW the Developpers also said you can't take Free actions during other actions unless they are Triggered actions when asked about specifically using a Dwarven Armor Healig Power as a Free action during an incoming attack in a Podcast.
So as Noctaem said, check with your DM first because if he decides it doesn't fly at his table it won't matter.
Free actions don't say you can take then whenever you want, nor does they say you can take them during other actions to interrupt attacks, they say you can take them during your or another combatant’s turn.
While there may be some game elements that specifically trump the general rules on Free actions, Forceful Push just isn't one of them.
Wasn't it stated that a free action taken during someone else's turn acts as a reaction unless acting as an interrupt is the only way the free action could do anything.
@Alcestis: Game elements that specifically trump the general rules on Free actions would not be any non-triggered Free actions, it would be Free actions that specifically say they can be taken during other actions ex. Reload (free)
I thought you were saying you could use Forceful Push when an enemy attacks you to Slide him out of reach and invalidate the attack on you, thus interrupt it, or in this case discussed by the OP, delfect a missile out of trajectory to cause a miss on your after it has launched, but before it landed, also interrupting the attack ?
By "break dozens of game elements", Alcistis means "characters at my tables do it, and it would make our characters less overpowered if we were unable to do it."
There's plenty of things in the game that do nothing due to rules changes, so you can either pretend they still work and move on with your life, follow the new rules to the letter and have a handful of things that don't work, or cheat and have your version of the rules allow for those things and "dozens" of other things become broken.
Or, as we say, Expect Table Variation.
(fwiw, I wouldn't allow it at my tables, because not only doesn't it work, it's not supposed to work)
No, I meant breaks dozens of game elements, because that is what it does. ^.^ Starting with returning magical thrown weapons for multi-attacks being uncatchable as the obvious example, but there are quite a lot of them. Unless you think being allowed to do things the rules say you can do is somehow "overpowered." Which is an asinine argument, btw, whether something is overpowered or not has no bearing on what the rules are. And the rules for non-triggered free actions have never been changed, except for the one caveat about attack powers, so what you said makes no sense.
It is interesting you'd play by a houserule which breaks dozens of game elements. Thanks for sharing? Do you think that is somehow relevant....?
Plague, we've presented you the rule that says you can use free actions:
Free Action: A creature can take free actions on its own or anyone else’s turn. Because most free actions require at least a small amount of time, the DM can restrict the number of free actions a creature can take during a round.
Published in Rules Compendium, page(s) 28.
This is the general rule. If you disagree that this is the general rule...then I'm not entirely sure why you'd do that, and you'd have to explain.
The question you then ask to adjudicate the rules are, then:
Is it my turn? Y/N
Is it anyone else's turn? Y/N
The answer to the presented question is Yes to the second one. Ok, so the general rule says you can use a free action during the circumstance presented. We then state that yes, the general rule applies, but is there anything specific?
And the answer is no. Unless you can point to an actual rule, in the actual text of the game, that indicates an exception to that general rule, then the general rule stands. And there is nothing you have presented thus far that prevents it. The power itself does not need to provide an exception, because the general rule is applying.
While the Free action rule say you can take Free actions on your turn and other combattant's turn and take as many as you want (at the DM's discretion), it doesn't say you can take Free actions during an attack and interrupt actions with them. Even the Devs themselves admitted that it was breaking some game elements.
So to resume: (The two statement below are 100% true and easily verifiable)
RAW Free actions doesn't say they can be taken during an attack (though some specific game element might)
RAI The Devs say Free actions cant be taken during an attack
Its not exception based design by not saying what you claim it do, its absence of evidence. Exception based design would be to say that you can take as many Free actions as you want even though actions normally have limitations in usage frequency.
Triggered Actions are exception based design by specifically saying they can interrupt attacks for exemple. Free actions don't.
But the general rule doesn't have the restriction you describe, in any fashion whatsoever. How are you justifying a restriction that does not exist in the text? Are you really claiming that the general rule, which says when you can take free actions, doesn't apply in absence of an actual exception?
Please address my question about whether you can take free actions at night. It is not a rhetorical question.
Yes you can take Free actions at night, because actions don't concern themselves with time of the day. But in this case actions do have precedent regarding action timing though. Some actions specifically say they can interrupt and so it means an action that doesn't say so do not interrupt. Interrupt are specific actions able to jump in when actions or event occurs, taking place before they finishes.
Not because there are actions saying they can Interrupt that an action saying it can be taken on other combattant's turn can interrupt as well if it doesn't also specifically say it can.
Its more the other way around. Cite the rule saying Free actions can interrupt if you claim they do ? You think the Devs would have said what they did in the Podcast if Free actions said they could Interrupt ? Yes they can be taken on yours and other combattant's turns and yes you can take as many as you want. But they just can Interrupt because they don't say they can.
Immediate actions say they can interrupt
Opportunity Actions say they can interrupt
Triggered Free/No action say they can interrupt
Free actions doesn't say they can interrupt.
Here's a transcription of the 4/6/2012 podcast (15 minutes in):
From the DDI Mailbag: Just how free are free actions… specifically the free action power of the Dwarven Armor daily power?(reference Dwarven armor daily power). When a wearer is hit, can he use free action between the attack roll and damage roll?
Mike Mearls: I believe that free actions can't take place in between things like attack roll and damage roll.
Jeremy Crawford: what you're getting at Mike is that in this case he could not use the power in between those two things because the power doesn't have a trigger. Basically the only powers in the game that can mess around with timing are powers with triggers, and then those triggers tell you when you get to break a rule. Because it doesn't say that, you have to use this as a discrete action; not interrupting other actions.
Mike: So it can't take place in the middle of another action.
Rodney Thompson: That may be true specifically for this action because it's the wearer using it between the phases of another character’s actions, but how does that account for the warden? We've said in the past that at any point during a move you can use a free action to mark and then continue that move.
Jeremy: That’s really a DM's call because the default assumption of the system is that the warden has to do it before the move action or at the end of it. Actions don't divide each other up (later) in my campaign I have a Warden and I let him do exactly what you describe: he can interrupt himself. It’s just that by the rules: we're breaking the rules. But this is what D&D is about. (later) Early on in the process we didn't have a concept of no action. If we were going to do this power now, it wouldn't be a free action.
How you resolve the timing of the free action is something entirely different, as I said before. Alcestis is being consistent in stating they interrupt, it agrees with the position that immediate reactions can interrupt as well (and yes, Alcestis, I am not using the 'entire action is lost' meaning, but rather the more colloquial 'make the attack not work' meaning. Please don't pick the nits, I'm using the terminology Plaguescarred is using). I disagree with that premise, but there really isn't a rule that specifies how the timing of non-triggered free actions resolve. The most straightfoward extrapolation is to apply the same rules as triggered free actions, and have non-triggered free actions resolve as reactions. But there aren't rules that say that - it is, as I said, an extrapolation. There aren't any rules that actually explicitly cover what it means for things to resolve, and there really should be.
But the rules do say that you can use free actions during an attack on another creature's turn. Regardless of the impact on whatever else is going on, you simply cannot dispute this fact.
I've stated it several times. The general free action rule, and the absence of any specific rule that contradicts that general rule.
The part where it says you can use them on another creature's turn. Are you saying that their attack is not on their turn?
Saying you can use them on another creature's turn does not equate to saying it can interrupt attack.
Not all Triggered action will interrupt necessarly even thought they can be taken on another combattant's turn for exemple. They'll interrupt because they say so.
And again, how you resolve the free action is an entirely separate question, one for which there is no answer.
But you can use it. What happens when you use it? Your guess is as good as mine.
While not what the Devs are saying, a commun ground between the two guesses would be that you can take Free actions during other actions, but not to interrupt an attack (roll and its effect) before it resolve and invalidate it.
This would allow to talk or catch a thrown weapon between Twin Strike attacks for exemple, but not to Slide an ally out of a monster's attack's reach in a manner to invalidate it.
If you evaluate them as reactions, and evaluate reactions as I claim the rules tell you to, then yes, you would arrive at that result.
Except that this results in treating Free actions just like Triggered actions which they aren't.
Its actually exactly the reason why the Developpers say you can't take Free actions during other actions, because the only actions that can be taken during other actions are Triggered actions only because they have Trigger.
Just like for Interrupt, unless a general rule says that all actions can be taken during other actions unless they say they don't, then its more in fact that no actions can be taken during other actions unless they say they do, since the precedent is that some action say they do. In this premise, only Triggered actions can do so.
The actual rules don't say that, anywhere. Either stick to arguing the actual rules, which have numerous examples where he is provably wrong and his statement is idiotic, or be content with just being wrong.
Free actions are not Triggered actions because they don't have a Trigger. Why shouldn't they be is a good question and think they should but its irrevelant. What's revelant is what the rules for actions say (and don't say).
Free action don't say they can be taken during other actions and lacks a Trigger that Triggered Free action have that allow them to do be taken during other actions.
(presuming this argument will keep up for awhile)
3e Deities could perform a limited number of Free Actions
relating to their portfolio. So this would be like super
fast Crafting of specific items. An Avatar of a deity with
a Divine Rank of 1, could perform just 1 said action.
It seems as though the historic rules never nailed down
the difference between Free-Free Actions you could do
over and over, and (semi-)Free Actions that had a limit.
Perhaps Free Actions could be limited to 1/round,
and No Actions can be the unlimited variety ... (in 5e).
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