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Switch to Forum Live View Ability score maximums why?
8 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2012 - 10:41PM #51
SlappyLamer
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 137

Oct 16, 2012 -- 7:08PM, FallingIcicle wrote:

I like the 20 cap. There are limits to what a human(oid) being can become without the aid of magic! That, and it got pretty ridiculous and 3.x and 4e. I never want to see a Wizard with 36 Intelligence again. How do you even roleplay that? That would be like having a 360 IQ in real life, when people like Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking have IQ scores in the 160+ range.




At some point the numbers become completely meaningless.  The thing is - I think even as the numbers are now they've become meaningless.

---

To call back to what I said before (because I didn't really reply to the reply to it)

The point with players saying "bugbears have 14 strength? That's not strong, a 1st level fighter has 18 strength." Sure you can say that 18 strength is extraordinary, but players don't imagine it that way, they imagine it as typical fighter strength.  Taken literally every fighter basically looks like this guy.  But actually imagining things that way creates a world that is silly.

It's not the end of the world by any means, but I think it would be nice if extraordinary strength was actually extraordinary and the average PC didn't have at least one superhuman attribute.  This is also something that goes back as far as 2nd edition though, 5d6 drop the two lowest roll 7 times and drop the lowest of those... or 3d6 twelve times keep the 6 highest, etc.

I remember there was considerable resistance when 3rd edition deflated the numbers on player attributes a bit... or at least appeared to. (They seem lower when you compare 1st level characters, but obviously at high levels you get attributes that literally go off the scale of 2nd edition)

If this doesn't happen, I'll just go on having stats that say one thing, and imagining the game in a way that doesn't match the numbers but also doesn't make my brain itch.  But I least want to put the idea forward. (and chances are, it's not going to happen)

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8 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2012 - 1:58PM #52
Jenks
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2008
Posts: 2,493
People need to remember that they are developing rules for THIS system and not AD&D/3e/etc. 

Just because they had it in 3e doesn't mean it works in this system. Please, for the love of Lathander, concentrate on this edition. Don't try and force old mechanics into 5e just because it was like that before. 5e is it's own edition and we should treat it as such. There are good arguments present against the ability caps that don't involve devling into the past, and that's how it should all be. Please judge and discuss the rules as written, thank you. 
My two copper.



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8 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2012 - 3:25PM #53
brap8
Date Joined: Jan 26, 2011
Posts: 304
Yes but in older versions of d and d , you did not get increases in stats every few levels. So if ya had a 15 wisdom at 1 st level. Then chance are you had the same at 12th. Unless you found some magic to help it out like pearls of wisdoms. Etch etc etc
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2012 - 8:05PM #54
J_Stillfeather
Date Joined: Jul 25, 2009
Posts: 29
1st off lets say they keep the ability score cap at 20.
Now lets say a party of by the rules characters goes up against a cload giant that has ability scores that exceed the ability score cap - the only two out comes for the encounter are:
1. the party runs away in fear narrowly escaping with their lives
2. A TPK!

I personally don't like senarios where the character that I have created enters A No win 

Scenario by any means - In my opinion that limits playability!

And 2nd of all D&D is a fantasy role playing game and not reality and I play D&D to escape the every day grind and let off all the pent up stress of every day life! Please stop asking wizards to make it realistic come on!

3rd what happens when they try to make a video game with the new rules ability caps make for a lame computer game where the characters keep die every other encounter!

Bring back the freedom to go beyond reality and open things up for creativity on the part of the Dungeon masters and the players alike! 



 
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2012 - 8:25PM #55
SlappyLamer
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 137

Oct 17, 2012 -- 8:05PM, J_Stillfeather wrote:

1st off lets say they keep the ability score cap at 20.
Now lets say a party of by the rules characters goes up against a cload giant that has ability scores that exceed the ability score cap - the only two out comes for the encounter are:
1. the party runs away in fear narrowly escaping with their lives
2. A TPK!

 




Next time the players should just kill the thing rather than trying arm wrestle it.

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8 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2012 - 10:34PM #56
Jenks
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2008
Posts: 2,493

Oct 17, 2012 -- 8:05PM, J_Stillfeather wrote:

1st off lets say they keep the ability score cap at 20.
Now lets say a party of by the rules characters goes up against a cload giant that has ability scores that exceed the ability score cap - the only two out comes for the encounter are:
1. the party runs away in fear narrowly escaping with their lives
2. A TPK!

I personally don't like senarios where the character that I have created enters A No win 

Scenario by any means - In my opinion that limits playability!

And 2nd of all D&D is a fantasy role playing game and not reality and I play D&D to escape the every day grind and let off all the pent up stress of every day life! Please stop asking wizards to make it realistic come on!

3rd what happens when they try to make a video game with the new rules ability caps make for a lame computer game where the characters keep die every other encounter!

Bring back the freedom to go beyond reality and open things up for creativity on the part of the Dungeon masters and the players alike! 



 



How are you justifying that a storm giant will always beat players? a 26 strength is hardly enough to kill a team of level 10+ players. To go along with players having caps, monsters will have more stable ability scores. Storm Giants will almost always have 26 str, in general. Certain named Giants might rise above that, but I doubt we'll see any giant going 30+. Bounded accuracy is a two way street. PCs are bound by it, as are monsters.

My two copper.



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8 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2012 - 11:23PM #57
Gazra
Date Joined: Jul 11, 2008
Posts: 759
I love the cap. It is simply the limit to which a human (or humanoid) can ascend without supernatural help. A 20 strength means you can win a gold medal in weightlifting in the Olympics. A 20 charisma means you can win your country's independence from England all William Wallace style. A 20 constitution means you can hold your breath like Houdini and kill an owlbear while you have pneumonia. And so on.

You can increase your scores above 20 by magical means; you can disallow those and play ultra-gritty; or you could layer on a super-powered module with 4e style score increases to get the effect of whatever desired genre you're trying to recreate with your game. Everyone gets what they want.
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 18, 2012 - 11:43AM #58
Mirtek
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Aug 4, 2001
Posts: 3,446

Oct 17, 2012 -- 8:05PM, J_Stillfeather wrote:

1st off lets say they keep the ability score cap at 20.
Now lets say a party of by the rules characters goes up against a cload giant that has ability scores that exceed the ability score cap - the only two out comes for the encounter are:
1. the party runs away in fear narrowly escaping with their lives

2. A TPK!


A nope, characters fight enemies that exceed their ability scores all the time since the dawn of D&D. e.g. in 3.x most fighters don't have a Str 45 by the time the party faces the great wyrm red dragon. While he has more than 20, he likely has less than 30 






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8 months ago  ::  Oct 18, 2012 - 7:59PM #59
BhaelFire
Date Joined: Jul 2, 2012
Posts: 702
I'm totally cool with an ability cap of 20 (for natural ability scores)...mainly because I think scores over 15 should be regarded as incredibly rare. A score of 20 for a player character should be considered on par with the lesser (humanoid) gods.
D&D Next - Basic and Expert Editions Show

I firmly believe that there should be two editions of the game; the core rules released as a "Basic" set and a more complicated expanded rules edition released as an "Expert" set. These two editions would provide separate entry points to the game; one for new players or players that want a more classic D&D game and another entry point for experienced gamers that want more options and all the other things they have come to expect from previous editions.

Also, they must release several rules modules covering the main elements of the game (i.e., classes, races, combat, magic, monsters, etc.) upon launch to further expand the game for those that still need more complexity in a particular element of the game.



Here's a mockup of the Basic Set I created.



(CLICK HERE TO VIEW LARGER IMAGE)
  


Basic Set


This boxed set contains a simple, "bare bones" edition of the game; the core rules. It's for those that want a rules-light edition of the game that is extremely modifiable or for new players that get intimidated easily by too many rules and/or options. The Basic Set contains everything needed to play with all the "classic" D&D races (i.e., Human, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling) and classes (i.e., Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) all the way up to maximum level (i.e., 20th Level).

The Basic boxed set contains:


Quick Start Rules
A "choose your own way" adventure intended as an intro to RPGs and basic D&D terms.

Player's Handbook
(Softcover, 125 pages)
Features rules for playing the classic D&D races and classes all the way up to 20th level.

Dungeon Master's Guide

(Softcover, 125 pages)
Includes the basic rules for dungeon masters.

Monster Manual
(Softcover, 100 pages)
Includes all the classic iconic monsters from D&D. 

Introductory Adventure
(Keep on the Borderlands)
An introductory adventure for beginning players and DMs.

Also includes: 

Character Sheets
Reference Sheets
Set of Dice




Expert Set


A set of hardbound rules that contains the core rules plus expanded races and classes, more spells and a large selection of optional rules modules — that is, pretty much everything that experienced players have come to expect. Each expert edition manual may be purchased separately, or in a boxed set. The Expert set includes:


Expert PHB (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus 10 playable races, 10 character classes, expanded selection of spells and rules modules for players.)
Expert DMG (Hardcover, 250 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus expanded rules modules for DMs.)
Expert MM (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes an expanded list of monsters and creatures to challenge characters)




Expansions


These expansion rules modules can be used with both the Basic and Expert sets. Each expansion covers one specific aspect of the game, such as character creation, combat, spells, monsters, etc.) 


Hall of Heroes (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes a vast selection of playable character races and classes, new and old all in one book)
Combat and Tactics (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes dozens of new and old optional rules for combat all in one book)
Creature Compendium (Hardcover, 350 pages.$35 Includes hundreds of monsters, new and old all in one book)
The Grimoire (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes hundreds of new and old spells all in one book)












A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage Show

A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage and Hit Points


In my personal campaigns, I use the following system for damage and dying. It's a slight modification of the long-standing principles etsablished by the D&D game, only with a new definition of what 0 or less hit points means. I've been using it for years because it works really well. However, I've made some adjustments to take advantage of the D&D Next rules. I've decided to present the first part in a Q&A format for better clarity. So let's begin...


What are hit points?
The premise is very simple, but often misunderstood; hit points are an abstraction that represent the character's ability to avoid serious damage, not necessarily their ability to take serious damage. This is a very important distinction. They represent a combination of skillful maneuvering, toughness, stamina and luck. Some targets have more hit points because they are physically tougher and are harder to injure...others have more because they are experienced combatants and have learned how to turn near fatal blows into mere scratches by skillful maneuvering...and then others are just plain lucky. Once a character runs out of hit points they become vulnerable to serious life-threatening injuries.


So what exactly does it mean to "hit" with a successful attack roll, then?
It means that through your own skill and ability you may have wounded your target if the target lacks the hit points to avoid the full brunt of the attack. That's an important thing to keep in mind; a successful "hit" does not necessarily mean you physically damaged your target. It just means that your attack was well placed and forced the target to exert themselves in such a way as to leave them vulnerable to further attacks. For example, instead of severing the target's arm, the attack merely grazes them leaving a minor cut.


But the attack did 25 points of damage! Why did it only "graze" the target?
Because the target has more than 25 hit points. Your attack forced them to exert a lot of energy to avoid the attack, but because of their combat skill, toughness, stamina and luck, they managed to avoid being seriously injured. However, because of this attack, they may not have the reserves to avoid your next attack. Perhaps you knocked them off balance or the attack left them so fatigued they lack the stamina to evade another attack. It's the DM's call on how they want to narrate the exact reason the blow didn't kill or wound the target.


Yeah, but what about "touch" attacks that rely on physical contact?
Making physical contact with a target is a lot different than striking them, so these types of attacks are the exception. If a touch attack succeeds, the attacker manages to make contact with their target.


If hit points and weapon damage don't always represent actual damage to the target, then what does it represent?
Think of the damage from an attack as more like a "threat level" rather than actual physical damage that transfers directly to the target's body. That is, the more damage an attack does, the harder it is to avoid serious injury. For example, an attack that causes 14 points of damage is more likely to wound the target than 3 points of damage (depending on how many hit points the target has left). The higher the damage, the greater the chance is that the target will become seriously injured. So, an attack that does 34 points of damage could be thought of as a "threat level of 34." If the target doesn't have the hit points to negate that threat, they become seriously injured.


Ok, but shouldn't armor reduce the amount of damage delivered from an attack?
It does reduce damage; by making it harder for an attack to cause serious injury. A successful hit against an armored target suggests that the attack may have circumvented the target's armor by striking in a vulnerable area.


What about poison and other types of non-combat damage?
Hit point loss from non-physical forms of damage represents the character spitting the poison out just in time before it takes full strength or perhaps the poison just wasn't strong enough to affect them drastically, but still weakens them. Again, it's the DMs call on how to narrate the reasons why the character avoids serious harm from the damage.


If hit points don't don't represent actual damage then how does that make sense with spells like Cure Serious Wounds and other forms of healing like healer kits with bandages?
Hit points do represent some physical damage, just not serious physical damage. Healing magic and other forms of healing still affect these minor wounds just as well as more serious wounds. For example, bandaging up minor cuts and abrasions helps the character rejuvenate and relieve the pain and/or fatigue of hit point loss. The key thing to remember is that it's an abstraction that allows the DM freedom to interpret and narrate it as they see fit.

What if my attack reduces the target to 0 or less hit points?
If a player is reduced to 0 or less hit points they are wounded. If a monster or NPC is reduce to 0 or less hit points they are killed.


Why are monsters killed immediately and not players?
Because unless the monsters are crucial to the story, it makes combat resolution much faster. It is assumed that players immediately execute a coup de grace on wounded monsters as a finishing move.


What if a character is wounded by poison or other types of non-physical damage?
If a character becomes wounded from non-combat damage they still receive the effects of being wounded, regardless if they show any physical signs of injury (i.e., internal injuries are still considered injuries).


Ok. I get it...but what happens once a character is wounded?
See below.
 


Damage and Dying


Once a character is reduced to 0 or less hit points, they start taking real damage. In other words, their reserves have run out and they can no longer avoid taking serious damage.


  1. Characters are fully operational as long as they have 1 hit point or more. They may have minor cuts, bruises, and superficial wounds, but they are are not impaired significantly. 

  2. Once they reach 0 or less hit points, they become Wounded (see below).That is, they have sustained a wound that impairs their ability to perform actions.

  3. If they reach a negative amount of hit points equal or greater than their Constitution score, they are Incapacitated. This means they are in critical condition and could possibly die.

  4. Characters will die if their hit points reach a negative amount greater than their Constitution score, plus their current level.



Unharmed: 1 hp or more
Wounded: 0 hp or less
Incapacitated: -(Constitution) to -(Constitution+Level)
Dead: Less than -(Constitution +Level)


Wounded
When the character reaches 0 or less hit points they become wounded. Wounded characters receive disadvantage on all attacks and saving throws until they heal back up to 1 hit point or more. This allows for a transitory stage between healthy and dying, without having to mess around with impairment rules while the character still has hit points left.


Incapacitated
Characters begin dying when they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution score. At which point, they must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw on each of their following turns (the disadvantage from being wounded does not apply for these saving throws).

If successful, the character remains dying, but their condition does not worsen.


If the saving throw fails, another DC 10 Constitution saving throw must be made. If that one fails, the character succumbs to their wounds and dies. If successful, the character stabilizes and is no longer dying.

Finally, if a dying character receives first aid or healing at any point, they immediately stabilize.


Dead
Characters will die if they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution, plus their current level. Thus, if an 8th level character with a Constitution score of 12 is down to 4 hit points then takes 24 points of damage (reducing their hit points to -20) the attack kills them outright.

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8 months ago  ::  Oct 18, 2012 - 8:39PM #60
warrl
Date Joined: Apr 16, 2009
Posts: 5,267

Oct 15, 2012 -- 10:26AM, Gwathir wrote:

The caps are in place to keep a sense of realism. A human with the strength of a giant just doesn't make sense - even in fantasy.


In spite of actually being present in the mythos of many cultures. Hercules, Beowulf, Cuchulain, Roland, to name just a few.

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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