Theres another thread asking what will alienate you towards 5e. But I wanted to get a bit more specific...
Mike and (the rest of the Dev team) has said that he expects that D&D next will be the system that will never require a 6e, that WOTC will put out "updates" for 5e, but will never again need a complete system reboot of a new edition...
Besides being a monster huge goal and an achievement that no other really successful RPG has ever succeded in, It makes me wonder... what is the largest cause of failure of long running successful RPG systems like 2.0,3.0, and yes now PF that many are calling for a new edition for that game.
IE. System bloat.
1) Defining "System Bloat" First, how do we define system bloat? Its a word a lot of people use when describing an older and successful rpg system that has become over burdened with rules, options, and eratta from a seemlingly endless sea of splat books. I looked for a fast and quick definition but couldent find one. So, I'm working from the definition above. A system which has too many options, too many optional rules, too much source material to read, too many rules and erata to easily put in play without creating long lists of what is and isnt allowed in a home game, or house rules to deal with it.
2) How does system bloat happen and what does it look like. For a perfect example of how an edition eventually gets infected with the potentially terminal system bloat disease I'd point to what Pathfinder is going through right now.
PF started out with the idea that if you make (or copy) a system that players want to play, it will be wildly successful, and they have been. First and formost they wanted to give there players a large amount of options, and since their inception, the system has grown and grown.
Every month an official pathfinder chronicle comes out that adds new feats, uses for skills, spells, magic items, prestige classes and archtypes. Not to mention books like the advanced race guide, advanced character guide, etc,. etc.. and setting books that all add scores to the above.
I couldent give you an exact number, but the number of feats is up over 250 maybe 300. each feat alters a rule in some way. Some feats are basically useless, while others are completely necessary to create a character that is effective, and still others make it easy to completely unbalence the game.
thats a lot of reading and study to be able to create a character, it also presents a near endless number of OP munchkin builds a player can choose from. Its also a tremendous amount of info for a DM to have to memorize, rule on, and implement. A lot of minor rule changes to be remembered for each character.
Its gotten to the point now where an encounter for a party above 16th level basically amounts to he who hits first, kills whatever it was, and those outcomes are mostly determined by who preped best before the combat happened.
3) How does an RPG make money month after month and still avoid system bloat? This is the biggest question I think WotC has to ask if they want to be succesfful with their goal of "no 6e" but honestly I dont know.
3a.) What did 2.0 do right? 2.0 seemed to do very well in this in my eyes. there were no archtypes, no prestige classes really, so there wasnt a lot to contribute to bloat.
2.0 had "the complete" line of splat books which had "character kits" that while giving a lot of great background, fluff, and suggestions, most often didnt really alter much; for example the duelist. There was a solid two pages of fluff, but the only rule that changed was if wearing light armor, the duelist character got +2 ac. and that was it (far as I remember)
the 2.0 splat books also covered many genres of fantasy RPG. there were books on theives guilds, castles, books on greek myth campaigns, books on vikings, pretty much everything.
I guess 2.0 went down hill with the skills and powers line of books, though appreciated by DMs who knew how to say "no" (I for one loved the pick and choose building class and innate power rules) many suffered with the new rules and soon 3.0 was in the works, but all in all, a highly successful long running edition, and my personal favrote.
3b.) What can we learn from 2.0? Again an assumption here, but increase the amount of fluff and background while changing almost nothing about the core system.
In my mind the core system should stand alone, if done right, there should not be any reason to release new feats, new prestige classes, new archtypes, new optional rules etc. Those are the things which people and players will be most interested in buying, but more than anything else they also contribute, and cause system bloat.
If DDN wants to avoid system bloat, and avoid having to come out with a 6e that wipes the surface and lets the new bloat begin... this is the only way that I can see the designers being successful.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
System Bloat is not a problem at all when done without Power Creep. How can having more options be a problem? It only becomes a problem when Power Creep is factored in. When newer options are more powerful, and therefore a better "buy," or more efficient than older options. Then and only then does bloat become a problem. This is largely due to the fact that players who are paying attention, or who like to find efficient power combos will have better characters than those who don't worry about this sort of thing. From there the cohesiveness of the group starts to fray, and before long the game is ruined. Can 5e continually produce new products without adding Power Creep? That remains to be seen. No RPG that I am aware of has been able to resist the temptation to introduce Power Creep over time. That doesn't mean it cannot be done, but it may mean that eventually instead of churning out new power options, WotC must find other ways to add value to the 5e engine. That could be things like more adventures, more miniatures, reward cards, or other peripheral products. My guess is that the temptation to provide cool new spells, powers, magic items, etc. will prove too strong and Power Creep will add to the bloat. Whether or not Hasbro allows another edition beyond 5e is another question. I guess not. Deveopment cycles are horrendously expensive, and the RPG model has largely been that profits between development cycles only exist to fund the next development cycle. I suspect Hasbro doesn't like that at all, and told WotC, "one more time...that's it."
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
My First D&D - 1979 D&D Basic Set (6th Printing)Show
Mike and (the rest of the Dev team) has said that he expects that D&D next will be the system that will never require a 6e, that WOTC will put out "updates" for 5e, but will never again need a complete system reboot of a new edition...
@wrecan- said it in the Gen Con pannel, I belive the 2hr pannel on 5e DMing... I watched it on youtube.
@Kalex... when your building your charcter, and you want the best feats to make you a really good halfling duelist... how many feats do you have to read? thats what I'm going through right now with PF. Had to make a new character, and I've got 300+ feats to look through. Yes, too many options is a bad thing, but how many is too many? that I dont know how to gage.
I agree with what you said about power creep, and the likely future of 5e, but thats why I'm sort of on the soapbox here... if the core system is done right, I think there should be a system for creating your own feats, classes, archtypes, etc. if they come out with a new archtype, it would really only be "how we used the core book to make this" but not an entirely new rule mod you havent seen before. thats one area where I feel point based games like Hero System and M&M are superior to static games like PF and the proposed DDN. I think thats what they were trying to do with skills and powers but they left too many loopholes.
@mr.popstar- good post, can you give me some examples? maybe highly successful long running games with many splat books that did this and never suffered powercreep or system bloat? if not, I sort of suspect its not really possible.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
@Kalex... when your building your charcter, and you want the best feats to make you a really good halfling duelist... how many feats do you have to read? thats what I'm going through right now with PF. Had to make a new character, and I've got 300+ feats to look through. Yes, too many options is a bad thing, but how many is too many? that I dont know how to gage.
I agree with what you said about power creep, and the likely future of 5e, but thats why I'm sort of on the soapbox here... if the core system is done right, I think there should be a system for creating your own feats, classes, archtypes, etc. if they come out with a new archtype, it would really only be "how we used the core book to make this" but not an entirely new rule mod you havent seen before. thats one area where I feel point based games like Hero System and M&M are superior to static games like PF and the proposed DDN. I think thats what they were trying to do with skills and powers but they left too many loopholes.
I guess why I brought up Power Creep is that if everything is pretty much balanced, it really matters a lot less what Feat you take. That and a really well put together online reference tool, and/or Character Builder should allow you to enter keywords and cut down on your choices. For instance in 3e I liked to take new Feats based on things that happened in the recent past adventures, or things I had done between levels. If I could enter a keyword, like "bullying" and get a reduced list of Feats...maybe 10-20...I don't see System Bloat being a problem. When you have to sort through dozens of books and hundreds of Feats, yeah I can see that being a problem. Pathfinder doesn't really have that kind of resource, though there are a few 3rd party products that may do this. D&D players are lucky to have the online Compendium and Character Builder to help with the task of leveling. If WotC knows what's good for them, the tools for 5e will be second to none.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
My First D&D - 1979 D&D Basic Set (6th Printing)Show
My Brother is our usual DM and when i told him that WoTC had anounced 5th edition, he said that it might be a good thing as 4th edition was getting to bloated.
He tries to give players many option but has to fit them into his campaign worlds(multiverse) in a logical way. But after a while there is so much coming out at such pace that it can be hard to adapt so everything fits in somwhere. this can lead to 2 things.
1) the DM does not fit it into his campaign but does alouw players to play anything they want, usualy this means compromising in roleplay opertunities as the class/ paragornpath is in no way conedted to the world around the player.
2) a DM must start limiting things saying only certain matirial can be used, making certain players feal they are hindered in their creativity when it comes to making a character.
Yes you can move to adding lots more fluff and less rules. But there are people who love having lots and lots of options to look trough and build characters.
One of the intresting things said in one of the chat discusions was thet they where thinking of moving away from the classic splat book aproach. and more to a aproach where player options are introduced as part of campaign settings and campaign recources. maybe some of the truble can be mitigated
1) Option A is better then option B. (+2 to X, +3 to X, +4 to X) 2) Option A does the same thing as option B. (dwarfs get +1 to X, elves get +1 to X, Clerics get +1 to X)
In both cases, there's an option that is not a really an option.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
@wrecan- said it in the Gen Con pannel, I belive the 2hr pannel on 5e DMing... I watched it on youtube.
I watched that panel. I don't remember them saying they thought there would never be a 6e. I remember them saying they thought if the game was solid, it could last a logn time, but I can't imagine anybody in the gaming industry saying there would be no need for a new edition at some point, and I certainly don't remember them saying that.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
