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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 6:50AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2012
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Why would a rogue fail at picking a standard lock? Or disarming a simple trap? Or sneaking around like he has done half his life? I'm just curious on your viewpoint, as I can't fathom the above situations in any "realistic" setting (I'm aware we are playing imaginary dragon slaying dudes).
The only argument that holds true for the above is: during combat. A stressed/low time environment is the ONLY time I would considering an accomplished thief/rogue/whathaveyou to be able to fail the above (baring even stealth, they should never "fail" stealth past a certain level of skill, only really observant enemies noticing them if they pass appropriate skill checks).
The chance to let a basic arrow trap shoot me in the face because of a dreaded 1 out of 20 roll is one reason I never played a rogue in the past...it just never made sense to me.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:45AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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Of those examples, stealth is VERY unreliable, with countless variables that D&D doesn't normally pay attention to but instead abstracts into the d20 roll. It strikes me as the poster boy for the d20 mechanic, not at all as something on which success should be easily obtained.
I have no idea, and I'm willing to be neither do you, what would "realistically" be involved in disarming traps, and it also strikes me that there's no such thing as a "standard" one. So I don't see that you have a case there either.
So of your three examples, only lockpicking is even a plausible candidate for autosuccess, and not coincidentally it's also the only one of the three that it was routinely possible to take 20 on in 3.x. What you seem to be arguing for is a return of that widely misunderstood mechanic, not so much skill mastery.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 1:28PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2012
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Hrm...don't really see much that convinces me. Stealth seems more than reliable if you're exceedingly practiced at it. In fact your only rolling to see "how" stealthy you are compared to enemy "spot" check (includes hearing atm)...in that case a rogue should never fail, and should be able to pull off a particular level of practice at it no matter his enviroment...a skilled stealth practicioner is not going to strip over something, scrape against something, etc, etc, and It suspends a huge amount of belief in the setting if something like that happens. For instance, I was DMing for some new-er players in 4e a year or so ago and a fighter was trying to stealthily look through a door. He rolled a 1 so I said he tripped over a rock and fell through the door...a rogue would never EVER do this as he practices at his skills and hones them to a razor edge: or he dies. As for traps, it matters not one lick if we know how they "realistically" function. My character does, he's trained in dealing with traps. He should be compitant in dealing with traps up to a certain level of skill. "Standard" is defined by the DM and adventures, and it is unknown to the player but the DM sure knows how complicated one is and whether my 19 skill trap disarmer can easily handle the dwarven arrow trap or not. Lockpick especially, basic locks are DC16...no rogue should fail that unless they purpously eschew(sp) skills for combat (perhaps a thug build). There are few skills I can come up with any reason to ignore an auto-XYZ score. Only during combat when time/pressure is a concern would it be OK to me to ignore the take 10 unless you can construct something reasonable to me....which is hard if you try so we're probably jsut at an impass on how we think the class should go  Just talking, no offense intended in anything ^_^
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 3:20PM
#24
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I think the solution is to replace skill mastery with advantage and would most likely house rule it this way if this was the final product.
It might be a bit larger of a bonus, but at least you have to pick up the dice. You can also cancel advantage in situations that offer disadvantage; this is an improvement over skill mastery, as disadvantage on an almost automatic success is still an almost automatic success. If you were concerned this was too big of a bonus you could make it X number of times a day where X increases as you go up in levels.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 1:46AM
#25
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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One thing that's worth noting is that in exchange for the right to add your expertise dice to skill checks, you've given up the chance to be a substantially more effective combatant. The only thing Rogue gives you that Fighter doesn't is the System Mastery maneuver (and a few other less important ones), proficiency with thieves tools, and 4 additional trained skills. In exchage, you give up 2hp/level on average, the ability to use heavy weapons (including the longbow) the ability to use medium and heavy armour and shields (you may not want to, but having options are always good), 2an additional maneuver known, an extra attack per round, and the ability to add your attack dice to attack/damage without the conditions imposed by sneak attack. As an elven fighter with the first feat from the stealth tree, you can have 7 skills including spot, listen, and sneak. A few more would be nice, but you can get by with that.
By increasing the DC to fit the character, your DM has removed the only advantages to playing a rogue. You could do everything you currently do EXACTLY as well and have all of the above listed benefits if you were a fighter focusing on stealth and skills. The current design of the rogue means that you can get by in combat (albeit suboptimally), but you are awesome at skill challenges. Your DM has to understand that they are taking away the only awesome thing about the class, and in effect making you a fighter (but worse).
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6 months ago ::
Nov 22, 2012 - 1:10AM
#26
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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It will change as per Mike Mearls on Twitter:  I don't like that the Thief in our group always succeeds on DC20 to 25 skill checks. Please fix this.
Yan Montréal, Canada
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:56AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jul 12, 2008
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I don't like skill mastery either.
It has a bunch of strange rough spots. Take a rogue with a +6 skill bonus. A DC 16 check is auto-success, while a DC 17 is 50% success: a tiny change in difficulty results in a huge change in success rates.
The temptation to "just up the numbers" on the part of the DM is natural. There are entire schools of DMing built around doing just this, where you eyeball how hard things should be based on how competent you think the players should be. Tossing bonuses of this kind at a player can easily lead to DC-inflation (much as adding to your attack bonus leads to AC-inflation in monsters, or boosting your AC leads to attack-inflation in monsters).
Abilities that let you do things, like the combat expertise dice, can help get around this. A fighter's expertise dice aren't just adding to damage or ability to lift things, they also let the fighter impose their will upon the world -- knock critters prone, knock them flying, etc. This is a vulgar form of competence that isn't answers nearly automatically with a "inflate numbers" response on the part of an eye-balling DM.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:03PM
#28
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Imo the way to go is give all rogues advantage with any skill in which they are trained(though this could be cancelled out by something that causes disadvantage) , but at least to start with this should be ALL they get--no extra skills, no other bonuses. The feats under Skill specialist (and possibly other ones such as stealth related) would have to be reworked, making sure to use a light handed approach--with auto advantage the effect of each will be magnified-- and have each feat apply to only one skill.
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