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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 4:06PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2007
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You recently posted the following poll results for kobolds in your latest Wandering Monsters article. Here is it again for the edification of all.
| Kobolds: Dragon blood? |
| 1 -- No dragon blood. |
221 |
17.6% |
| 2 -- I like the wishy-washy answer. |
731 |
58.1% |
| 3 -- Definitely dragon blood! |
306 |
24.3% |
| Total |
1258 |
100.0% |
I'd like to take a crack at interpreting these results. 82.4% of those polled like the 'possibility' that kobolds are descended from dragons, if not definitively linked to dragons with no question in their mind what-so-ever. You made it clear that you want to de-couple kobolds from their dragon lineage, but I think this poll disagrees with your sentiment. You also made it seem like (in the previous Wandering Monsters article) there are no D&D precedents for kobolds being descended from dragons, writing :
"The most contentious part of the description seems to have been the kobold claim to dragon descent. That's one of those things that has worked its way into my mind (and not just mine) without ever really being explicitly stated in the core rules, at least not that I could find."Let's start with a quote from the Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set. "They have scaly, rust-brown skin and no hair." Fair enough, scaly-skin does not a dragon make. So let's follow this quote up with two more from Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Monstrous Compendium, Volume 1.
"Barely clearing three feet in height, kobolds have scaly hides that range from very dark rusty brown to a rusty black." ...and...
"In a lair there will be 5-20 (5d4) bodyguards, females equal to 50% of the males, young equal to 10% of the males and 30-300 (3d10x10) eggs." Eggs. A picture of kobolds as reptiles is beginning to form, which is eventually firmed up in Dungeons & Dragons, 3rd Edition, Monster Manual.
"Kobolds are short, reptilian humanoids with cowardly and sadistic tendencies." ...and...
"A kobold's scaly skin ranges from a dark rusty brown to a rusty black color." Fast forward and couple of years and guess what? The secret is out. Let there be no doubt!
Here is a picture of a 'dragonwrought kobold' figurine, made by Wizards of the Coast and hosted by the Wizards of the Coast web site.

Here is the book, published by Wizards of the Coast, in which kobolds were featured and described as having strong game-mechanical ties to dragons.

Here's some beautiful interior art of a 'winged' dragonwrought kobold from Races of the Dragon (no doubt responsible for inspiring the above-posted figurine).

Which leads me to ask...how hard did you look for connections between kobolds and dragons in D&D lore?
Also, based on these easily discovered examples of winged kobolds, I think you may be premature in leaving the 'urd' aside for now. The urd kobolds seem to be alive and well (in some form or another).
You asked what D&D players think. Well, D&D players have spoken. Please listen to them.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 4:35PM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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Specifically, 1,258 of the 80,000+ D&D players taking part in the playtest have spoken. Just a matter of perspective.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 4:40PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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I think when they say "D&D Lore" they mean editions 2 and earlier. Clearly the dragon-kobold thing in 3e is pretty solid. In earlier editions, they're reptitian but not draconic.
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday BookThe Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 4:49PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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In edition 1 and 2, they were small lizardmen. However, strangely enough they were also considered to be goblins. This was never particularly well explained-- except that "goblinoid" just seemed to sort of mean basic, mundane badguy demi-humans.
It was only when WotC took over that they became dragonoids. If dragonborn aren't thrown out though, they might serve the purpose of being the dragonborn's small people race-- such as halflings with humans, goblins with hobgoblins and gnomes for dwarf/elfs.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 4:57PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2006
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I love this thread.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 4:58PM
#6
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They like to believe they are dragons, and the nobelest of their kin are dragon decended, but dragons are known to get around. Kobalds are just one of the more willing races to have draconic blood introduced, but that does not mean they all are dragon decended.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 5:18PM
#7
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3rd Edition is indeed where this idea first started. The earilest reference I can find is in The Sunless Citadel. The kobold chieftain Yusdrayl says when asked why the kobolds are here... "As all know kobolds are heir to dragons. As the mightiest among my people, I have led a brave few to this holy site, where dragons were revered long ago."
I believe Deekin Scalesinger the kobold bard from the Bioware's Neverwinter Nights video game also made frequent references to kobolds' draconic heritage.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
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Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
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The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
My First D&D - 1979 D&D Basic Set (6th Printing)
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 6:04PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2006
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the way i see it, why not just let them have it? it makes them more interesting than just being another wimpy race of level 1 fodder.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 6:11PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Dec 15, 2009
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The way I see it, leave the answer as a mystery, all wishy-washy. Maybe they are dragon-blooded, maybe they're not. If it's something that becomes important in a game, the DM can decide for himself based on his preferences/setting. If it's not important to the game, it's just one of life's unanswered questions and adds flavor to the game.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 7:43PM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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82.4% of those polled like the 'possibility' that kobolds are descended from dragons, if not definitively linked to dragons with no question in their mind what-so-ever.
And at the same time, 75.7% of those polled like the 'possibility' that kobolds are not descended from dragons, if not definitively unrelated to dragons with no question in their mind what-so-ever.
Speculative interpretation of vague data is fun.
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