Interesting posts so far. However I feel the need to point out one of the most toxic notions I've seen in d & d - that it is not competitive. While, perhaps, an understandable idea, it is flat wrong.
That is a fairly broad statement to make that if you look at it in detail is bount to create problems. Sure, at the extremes it is easy to recognize meta-gaming and as a result avoid it. There is though a huge swath of grey in between. Is it meta-gaming to conclude the ice drake is likely immune to cold damage (or at the very least resistant)? How much does the world know about trolls? Even in RL mythology most monsters that are hard to kill are hurt by fire and so even the most clueless TV hero tends to go for fire quickly. So is it really odd that a PC without any serious monster knowledge to jump to the same conclusion?
Great questions. For what it's worth, this is how I handle it. Shared storytelling makes this whole transaction incredibly useful to the DM and interesting for the group:
DM: The trolls surge out of the cave and attack en masse! P1: I grab out my torch and light it up. P2: What? We've never encountered trolls before... how could Ragnar even know fire hurts them? DM: Good question. P1? P1: In the land from which I hail, we have a nursery rhyme. It tells the tale of a clever boy who tricks an "invincible" troll by making it think he's hidden in the chimney. When the troll climbs up the chimney and gets stuck in there, the boy lights the fire and that's all she wrote. DM: Very cool. From where do you hail? P1: The hamlet of Marshton. It borders a swamp. DM: What's going on with troll activity in that region these days? P1: It's on the rise. There are rumors of a bog hag rallying them for some reason. P2: Sounds like we need to go to Marshton next!
Whenever there is a disconnect between player knowledge and character knowledge (especially if that sort of thing bothers you), just ask questions and establish fiction to explain it. The DM writes down the interesting tibdits and uses it for future adventures. In this example, we have a possible new adventure location, we've learned a bit about Ragnar, the world seems a little more dangerous and exciting, and nobody can gainsay P1 for using fire on the trolls now. Wins all around.
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
Ah Joshua you expect me to be upset. I am not. Instead I will use you as a useful example of the close minded. You are the zealous. You are the self assured. When asked to think or consider, you shrink away. This is within your right. However I challenge others to shun your example and go to that frightening terrifying place...the place where ideas are challenged and, scariest of all, someone might find out they were wrong about something. Until then adieu, so long and goodbye. This conversation might be too much for your delicate sensibilities. If so, toodles.
Yeah, no, you were the one who was being close-minded.
Back on topic, in what way is the notion that dnd is not competeitive (which is 100% correct) toxic? Do you do some sort of arena PvP game? Otheriwse, it isn't competitive.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag. I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke. "Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael Spoiler:Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.'' —Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you? -Daniel Jackson "Fun will now commence." -Seven of Nine
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank. 2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies. 3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up. 4. ??? 5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
Books are often wrong. In fact, I’ve seen school books contain factual errors in large quantities. To ascribe a given rulebook written by a human-being a Bible-like level of infallibility is…well…come on now.
The error you are mentioning, however, is a misunderstanding rather than a factual mistake. And yes, this is a mistake no the writer/designers part unfortunately.
You see, D&D is a game. A game, necessarily contains a challenge. Without a challenge, there is no game. It is one of the defining qualities of a game just as a square can be defined by several immutable mathematical rules governing squares. Now, since D&D is a game and game’s contain a challenge then it stands that D&D must therefore contain at least one challenge. The challenge of the game is what creates competition. Competition is the players of the game acting in opposition of the challenge.
This misconception is the silly notion that this means player vs player or player vs DM. This is very wrong. Like in a story, there are many kinds of competition/challenge/conflict. In literary terms these are things like “Man Vs Man”, “Man Vs Nature” and “Man Vs Self”. Some games (like stories) fall into one of these categories…most fall into at least two. Man vs Man would indicate that it is DM vs the players, but we know this to be untrue as the DM has infinite power within the confines of the game and, therefore, there can be no conflict as there is no challenge for the DM. Man vs Nature, however, embodies the idea of man vs an external force…meeting the challenge of the world, his environment or facets of that environment (wild animals, and the like). D&D firmly has a foot planted in Man Vs Nature. Your PCs are challenging the game world itself in whatever form that conflict takes whether it be staying warm for the night or overcoming a corrupt government. The “environment” of the game is abstracted into literally every facet of the PCs interaction in the world.
D&D’s other foot, however, is firmly rooted in Man vs Self which is defined as when “a character must overcome his own natures or make a choice between two or more paths - good and evil; logic and emotion.” It is by this mechanic that characters are defined, decisions are made and decisions are given their importance in the game. It is also through Man vs Self that a player defines themselves in the game world at large. They take risks, they make decisions, they play the odds…or spit in the face of them.
So yes, D&D is very much competitive when one fully understands what that means. When that is not understood, however, or when it is only understood in a limited way, we get truisms like “D&D isn’t competitive”. Now, of course it “feels” good to say such things because D&D is very much a cooperative game. However, so is football. So is kayaking. Unfortunately, people have, in their minds, put cooperative and competitive at odds, as if they are matter and anti-matter, cursed to never interact lest they mutually annihilate one another. Again…football? When one understands the natures of games, this makes a statement like “D&D isn’t competitive” patently absurd. This is the same sort of thinking that tells us that the entire point of D&D is to “have fun”…does it feel good to say? Sure. Is it warm and fuzzy? Absolutely. Is it wrong? Assuredly.
Now, with all that out of the way, but also to further frame the OP, I really would like to see the conclusions people draw about meta-gaming and the actual damage it causes. The how’s and why’s of that damage are actually what is very interesting as it flips a dynamic we are all probably quite used to. Again, though, I will avoid just vomiting it out because this is, after all, a discussion…not a lecture, and some people have already been batting back and forth quite good conversation. I am particularly intrigued by the epiphany Jtheta might have had!
Post script: there is great irony in stating someone is close minded when they are the ones that have been put on "ignore".
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
I feel the need to point out one of the most toxic notions I've seen in d & d - that it is not competitive. While, perhaps, an understandable idea, it is flat wrong.
Thank you for revealing yourself as a one-true-way'er so that I may put you on ignore without remorse.
+1, especially since your sig doesn't exactly set the atmosphere for a good-natured discussion.
Yagami, you don't seem to understand what a competitive game is. A cooperative game features players working together. A competitive game features players playing aghainst each other. D&D is cooperative.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag. I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke. "Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael Spoiler:Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.'' —Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you? -Daniel Jackson "Fun will now commence." -Seven of Nine
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank. 2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies. 3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up. 4. ??? 5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
No, corran, I fully understand. Is football competitive or cooperative?
Competitive, obviously.
But correct me if I'm wrong when I say I don't see two teams of players facing off in D&D. (At least, not outside some sort of cool PvP adventure, like the thread on the front of this forum).
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag. I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke. "Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael Spoiler:Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.'' —Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you? -Daniel Jackson "Fun will now commence." -Seven of Nine
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank. 2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies. 3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up. 4. ??? 5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
Football is competitive, therefore not cooperative, therefore football is....1 on 1?
Honestly, there is no cooperative game element to football?
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
Discussion - consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate.
I see nothing about "nature" there. I am under no obligation to fret over other peoples emotions. That sort of thing just muddies actual discussion. In fact, I am openly challenging other peoples pre-conceived notions. Their emotional response to that is far beyond my control, so I will not attempt to control it.
If every discussion you take part in has to be carefully moderated so as to avoid offending your sensibilities, that is unfortunate. I won't change though, just as I won't get upset. Do as you will.
However, if you have not yet put me on ignore, I offer you this: If you are 100% sure of everything with D&D, why be on a discussion board about D&D? I am here to challenge peoples notions and to have my own challenged. I accept that I cannot be correct about everything. I have had my thoughts overturned on many things in my life, D&D included...and I've never put someone on ignore for putting forth a different idea.
Has no one seem Dogma? Don't believe things. People die for beliefs. Think things instead. People change what they think all the time. The important thing about that is that thinking things requires one keep thinking...belief does not require any thinking at all. And how telling is that?
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
