That kind of synergy is exactly the kind of thing which Warlords SHOULD be able to amplify.
If there is an issue with Wizard spells being too numerous and powerful that a Warlord allowing another to be cast is overpowered then that's a problem with the Wizard spells, not the Warlord action granting.
Likewise if there is an issue with WYTAA powers activating again then that is only emphasising the need for them to be unfolded out of "actions" and into a category of their own to prevent these issues.
In other words, we are showing problems NOT with Warlord action granting but instead with Wizard spell (power and/or number per day) and WYTAA abilities (especially potential for stacking).
WYTAA are (currently) intended to be only 1/round. Warlord's shouldn't break that.
You can either put the restriction on the warlords, or you change all the WYTAA to "once per round, when you take an action". (OPRWYTAA is a bit of a mouth full).
Each class is supposed to be mechanically distinct. Rather than making the Warlord kinda like the fighter but doing different things with his dice pool, why not give it it's own unique mechanics?
TS dice are at-wills. And the pre-panning would be encounters. Healing would be utility.
It's a bit harder to justify a daily on a martial class.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Reasons for a warlord to give up his action for another character to get an attack or MINOR spell.
1. Other character might have ongoing buff/item that gives said character an edge. 2. Other character can target the creature that needs to die right now, i.e. not bogged down by the mook screen. 3. Other character might be in 'one-on-one' combat. 4. Attack/Minor spell may have rider or specific effect needed. 6. Ally might be in advantageous position and thus have a better chance of hitting/critting. 7. Warlord doesn't feel like getting out from behind his nice safe wall. 8. Because making the little puppets do as you command is fun.
The way I see it the basic at-will version of the warlord ability needs to allow attacks, and minor spells only, and do so without triggering the WYTAA stuff.
Bigger granted actions and special bonuses can be use limited abilities and/or gained at higher levels.
I'd think of keeping it related to specific actions.
United Strike When you make a melee attack against a figure you may grant a basic attack to an ally also adjacent to that figure.
Coordinated Attack When you make a ranged attack against a target you may grant an ally within 30 feet a basic ranged attack or cantrip against the same target.
Evade You use your reaction to allow an ally within 30 feet to move without provoking an AoO once per turn if you have moved 10 feet this round.
Of course for my Warlord these also cost TS die but you can keep the concept without them. Why can't you just grant an ally a basic attack?
Maybe I missed something, but it seems like even those of us who want to see the Warlord class are milling around the idea of it being something like a Fighter, anyway, with a CS-like dice pool and so forth.
People are actually asking I think for an underlying theme to the mechanics (a consistancy for martial classes atleast)
And many of us here are still progressives in spite of the nostalgia influence we see, so we are trying to connect with new and interesting is attractive, AEDU had benefits on its own but its primary one (systematic universality) isnt available in 5e.
I think that I'd define myself as a nostalgic progressive; having a deep affection for what is old, with a keen interest in seeing something new.
On that note, 'systematic universality' is not something I'm aiming for. -- It just makes sense to me that a Combat Superiority-like dice mechanic is flavorful and fitting for the warlord (in my opinion).
I have submitted a few ways in which we could make it unique, though.
WYTAA are (currently) intended to be only 1/round. Warlord's shouldn't break that.
You can either put the restriction on the warlords, or you change all the WYTAA to "once per round, when you take an action". (OPRWYTAA is a bit of a mouth full).
I agree with all of that. LOL
TS dice are at-wills. And the pre-panning would be encounters. Healing would be utility.
It's a bit harder to justify a daily on a martial class.
Reasons for a warlord to give up his action for another character to get an attack or MINOR spell.
1. Other character might have ongoing buff/item that gives said character an edge. 2. Other character can target the creature that needs to die right now, i.e. not bogged down by the mook screen. 3. Other character might be in 'one-on-one' combat. 4. Attack/Minor spell may have rider or specific effect needed. 6. Ally might be in advantageous position and thus have a better chance of hitting/critting. 7. Warlord doesn't feel like getting out from behind his nice safe wall. 8. Because making the little puppets do as you command is fun.
The way I see it the basic at-will version of the warlord ability needs to allow attacks, and minor spells only, and do so without triggering the WYTAA stuff.
Bigger granted actions and special bonuses can be use limited abilities and/or gained at higher levels.
Except for a MINOR disagreement.
This. Warlords get versatility as a bonus. Being able to "attack" from anywhere, with a variety of weapons, ranges, and effects, is a strong boon.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Unless there is at least the potential for the "grant an attack" option to be BETTER than the Warlord just making the attack themselves, why would you ever do it?
Granted attacks will be better, even if they don't grant any bonus. In some situations there are tactical advantages to granting an attack, such as only one character being able to reach the enemy leader, or the warlord not having the right type of weapon for hurting monsters. But even beyond that, the fighter's straight melee attack will probably have a slightly better attack bonus and have higher damage then the warlords.
In addition, if the granted attack has a significant bonus, why would the warlord ever attack anything directly?
Well, the /only/ version of the warlord is the 4e version, so I guess it's the definitive one. The Warlord had Inspiring Words, Commanding Presence, and he had both at-will and limited-use exploits to manage.
The 3e Marshal had the same conceptual space as the Warlord, and there where several related prestige classes, so it wasn't really invented for 4e. Also, one of the things I want the Warlord to get away from is the class playing like a martial cleric, and I get the impression other people feel the same way. I would like to see a viable Warlord class with no healing at all, at least as an option.
Unless there is at least the potential for the "grant an attack" option to be BETTER than the Warlord just making the attack themselves, why would you ever do it?
(Not a rhetorical question.)
That just it, I don't think it should be potentially better, I think it should be roughly equal. Not every warlord should be forced to be a lazylord. Leading throuh example should be just as viabable a option.
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
Yeah somtimes cracking heads is something the boss man's gotta do.
The problem with dragon gaurdian's idea is that it's specific to cantrips, need to make that any minor spell. Also the inability to target creatures you can't hit kinda defeats some of the purpose and tactical flexibility.
Also why make the melee and ranged versions different abilities?
What's wrong with?
Direct the Strike: As an action you may have one ally within 10 squares (50 ft.) attack or cast a minor spell at any creature they can percieve and target with the attack or spell. The ally must be capable of taking such an action, however you are still the one considered to be taking an action.
Maybe I missed something, but it seems like even those of us who want to see the Warlord class are milling around the idea of it being something like a Fighter, anyway, with a CS-like dice pool and so forth.
5e classes are supposed to harken back to the original vision of the class, are they not? To evoke the core concept of it?
What is the definitive version of the Warlord?
Well, the /only/ version of the warlord is the 4e version, so I guess it's the definitive one. The Warlord had Inspiring Words, Commanding Presence, and he had both at-will and limited-use exploits to manage.
Each class is supposed to be mechanically distinct. Rather than making the Warlord kinda like the fighter but doing different things with his dice pool, why not give it it's own unique mechanics?
I don't see any other 5e classes using AEDU...
Well there have been various suggestion for all the different 4e AEDU abilities, they are being express in a different fashion (the current hallmark of 5e it seems).
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
Yeah somtimes cracking heads is something the boss man's gotta do.
The problem with dragon gaurdian's idea is that it's specific to cantrips, need to make that any minor spell. Also the inability to target creatures you can't hit kinda defeats some of the purpose and tactical flexibility.
Also why make the melee and ranged versions different abilities?
What's wrong with?
Direct the Strike: As an action you may have one ally within 10 squares (50 ft.) attack or cast a minor spell at any creature they can percieve and target with the attack or spell. The ally must be capable of taking such an action, however you are still the one considered to be taking an action.
The reason to make it a different ability, would be because there maybe wording that need to be tweaked because of some other function or feature. For instance, if you want to make particular builds of warlord better at one then the other or wanted to bake in a mechanical advantage that would only benefit one type of attack.
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
Guided Shot: Whenever you use an action to cause another creature to attack with a ranged weapon the damage roll gains a +2 bonus. This bonus increases to 3 at level 6, to 4 at level 12, and to 5 at level 18.
Tracer Shot: As an action you make a ranged attack against a target, but do no damage on a hit. If you hit all attack rolls made against that target gain a +2 bonus until the end of your next turn.
Guided Volley: When you use an action to cause another creature to attack with a ranged weapon you may sacrifice the damage bonus of guided shot and instead use the action to cause 2 creatures to attack the same target with a ranged weapon.
