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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 1:52AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2012
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More along the lines of balance issues, really.
1. Radiant lance is overpowered. I had a fighter, cleric and wizard in the test group and the cleric was slaying stuff left and right. 1d8+4 is a touch too much - maybe 1d6+1 would be better.
2. Finesse weapons give attack bonus, damage bonus and AC bonus based on the dex modifier. Given this, why would anyone want to play a str-based fighter, who has to split attack and defence between two stats? Slightly better resistance to grapples? Am I missing something here?
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 7:52AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2007
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Hey Dude,
Some notes:
1. Radiant Lance
Minor evocation
Your devotion reveals itself as a beam of light that shines from your holy symbol or weapon to burn a path through your foes.
Effect: Make a magical attack against one creature within 50 feet of you. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 + 4 radiant damage. Radiant Lance:
- Requires line of sight.
- Can miss vs AC; for no dmg.
- 1d8+4 = Min 5 / Max 12 DMG (Average 8.5 DMG)
Thats pretty fine really, considering that it is the Clerics go-to dmg spell for the next few LVs (if they are avoiding necromancy). My playtest group seem to do 9 DMG average per successful attack (I know this because its the number I was most writing down). Wizard was overall the lowest hitting as they were leaning on their Magic Missile 2-5dmg, but once they cracked out their burning hands and started thinking creatively, ended up dropping a huge number of foes. Could it be your other PCs were rolling low that night? Were you taking full advantage of the Advantage/Disadvantage system? 2. No info for you man, sorry. Anyone?
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 8:27AM
#3
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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2) What you are missing is that a STR-based fighter does not wear light armor, he'd opt for heavy armor. Look at the armor values: Heavy armor has the same AC as comparable light + 5 Dex (Dex 20). A Dex 18 character would be one AC below comparable heavy.
Advantage of heavy: Max AC at a given magnitude of cost even if STR is not maxed, and "only" 18 or, heaven forfend, 16.
Disadvantage of heavy: Can't sneak; 5 feet slower.
A character that relies heavily on stealth would go for Dex, light armor and finesse. Ditto for a character that relies heavily on ranged attacks.
Str-based characters are better protected against stat-sapping spells. Their Str gets sapped by 4 points, that'll hurt their ability to hit and do damage for sure. But they've still got full AC, equivalent to a +5 stat bonus.
A Dex-based fighter, on the other hand, not only has to deal with decreased damage output, but to add injury to insult, they'll get punched in the face more often now, too.
What emerges, then, are the two classic play styles: The Str-based figher stands at the front, dishes out in melee and takes what is thrown his way, even when he comes under adverse effects such as poison or magic. The Dex-based fighter can potentially (Dex 20) be just as "tank-ish", but when he gets poisoned or otherwise debuffed, he'll want to move around the battlefield, or hide, or do some other thing that will get him out of the line of fire.
Outside of raw combat, the two different play styles are a good complement to each other, as well:
The Str-based figher can bash in a door, or flip a table at a bunch of henchmen streaming into the room, or push that armoire in front of the door in order to keep them from streaming in.
The Dex-based figher can balance his way across a spike pit by means of a hastily arranged beam or log (possibly by the Str-based figher), in order to get to the guard room and close said spike pit. The Dex-based fighter can leap clear of dangers such as traps in the first place. The Dex-based fighter could swing over that lava pit on a rope, and land safely on the other side.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 5:08PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2012
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Ok, the radiant lance can miss, but fighting goblins at level 1 with an AC of 13 means a 7 or more to hit. And I'm comparing it to magic missile; sure it always hits, but it can be stopped by the shield spell, and hey, it's a wizard, they should be able to do more damage than a cleric. Even if it was reduced to 1d8+1 it'd be more reasonable, but as it stands, everyone in the entire group declared that it was OP, even the cleric player.
As for finesse; It's not difficult for a human character to start with 18 dex, and a str character has to pay 5000gp to get better AC, and even then his initiative is worse. I guess the difference comes down to RP style, if someone wants a strong guy vs a quick guy. In the next game I'll throw some grappling opponents into the fray and see how our dex fighter does.
Edit: After some thought, I can see that both types are very close to being even, given teh different other bonuses that str and dex provide. One of my group is going to play a str fighter so we can compare the two types.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 7:45PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2012
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Could it be your other PCs were rolling low that night?
Were you taking full advantage of the Advantage/Disadvantage system?
Everyone seemed to hit fairly often, but the cleric's attack was the highest in the group. The dex fighter was using a rapier, so was doing 1d6+4.
Not sure what you mean by taking advantage of the advantage system; I was giving it out as the situation required, but in a straight, stand-up fight, there wasn't a lot of opportunity to say 'you have disadvantage because...' I mean, there usually has to be a reason 
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9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 12:59AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2007
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Could it be your other PCs were rolling low that night?
Were you taking full advantage of the Advantage/Disadvantage system?
Everyone seemed to hit fairly often, but the cleric's attack was the highest in the group. The dex fighter was using a rapier, so was doing 1d6+4.
Not sure what you mean by taking advantage of the advantage system; I was giving it out as the situation required, but in a straight, stand-up fight, there wasn't a lot of opportunity to say 'you have disadvantage because...' I mean, there usually has to be a reason
Its situational, and players should also be using tactics to try and trigger it. We had a player use a firework to deafen/distract a foe, in order to disorient him, making him disadvantaged for the next round. Pure roleplay, beautiful execution.
As for 1. At level 1 a Cleric is the representitive of a God. A Wizard is Magic user with a book. I'd argue that a Lv1 Wizard should not be able to out damage a Cleric, its simply that its what we are used to and there for feels odd.
The cleric will be out damaged at lv2 and lv3, they will stil be leaning on that cantrip, where as everyone else will have moved on.
Just saying.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 2:11AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2012
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Could it be your other PCs were rolling low that night?
Were you taking full advantage of the Advantage/Disadvantage system?
Everyone seemed to hit fairly often, but the cleric's attack was the highest in the group. The dex fighter was using a rapier, so was doing 1d6+4.
Not sure what you mean by taking advantage of the advantage system; I was giving it out as the situation required, but in a straight, stand-up fight, there wasn't a lot of opportunity to say 'you have disadvantage because...' I mean, there usually has to be a reason
Its situational, and players should also be using tactics to try and trigger it. We had a player use a firework to deafen/distract a foe, in order to disorient him, making him disadvantaged for the next round. Pure roleplay, beautiful execution.
As for 1. At level 1 a Cleric is the representitive of a God. A Wizard is Magic user with a book. I'd argue that a Lv1 Wizard should not be able to out damage a Cleric, its simply that its what we are used to and there for feels odd.
The cleric will be out damaged at lv2 and lv3, they will stil be leaning on that cantrip, where as everyone else will have moved on.
Just saying.
And a wizard summons powerful arcane might to do his thing. If being a cleric is the be-all end-all as you suggest, then we should all just play clerics by this logic. Wizards don't get healing magic, they've typically been utility and offensive in power, so why should the class that gets healing and support stuff also out-damage him, to say nothing of the clerics better hitpoints, ability to wear armour and do melee etc, and that's mostly at the first few levels too. I stand by my earlier point - 1d8+4 is too much for a cantrip.
Glad your players are thinking outside the box with stuff like that firework; my team doesn't seem to have grasped that concept yet, despite my suggestions. I suspect they're still thinking in terms of absolute rules, as opposed to what could conceivably be done in RP terms. My guys LOVE to argue rules, always have, so this is a bit of a shock to their system
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9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 7:00PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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Everyone seemed to hit fairly often, but the cleric's attack was the highest in the group. The dex fighter was using a rapier, so was doing 1d6+4.
That is your problem right there, your fighter is using dex. Fighter's need to use strength, otherwise they aren't going to be as powerful as a fighter can be. The fighter should be doing 1d10 (or 1d12) +4 damage per turn and can do 1d10+1d6 (expertise dice) + 4 per turn. That is a lot more damage then 1d8+4. Radiant Lance is not too strong, it is the average damage a cleric would be doing if he was instead using a weapon. (Which likely would be 1d10 or 1d12 + strenth, so it is probably less damage before you account for the attack bonus being higher with the spell.) Depending on his race, the cleric could be doing even more then that with a normal weapon. Radiant Lance should be at least as powerful as a cleric would be using a weapon.
Your player has chosen to use dex, which is not the norm for a fighter and I would consider a bad build for a fighter. (Now if that is what he wants to play, no argument from me, but he is choosing to be less powerful in favor of story, that isn't a problem with the cleric's Radiant Lance, it is just the nature of the game).
I would say that likely the other players in the group have made similar choices, not maximizing their potential damage and instead choosing more favorable story elements. The only character that the Cleric should be doing more damage than constantly is the wizard (who gets all his bang at once). I honestly think the issue stems from the chioces your players made, and not the power level of the cleric.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 8:53PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2012
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It's a fair point that a dex fighter sacrifices damage for mobility, and really the radiant lance is only as good as a crossbow with 18 dex now that I think about it. We'll be running another session this friday so I'll shake things up a bit and see how they go
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9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 9:54PM
#10
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Andkeep in mind that Wizards are too weak. Ray of frost at d6+3 does have a 100 ft range NF slows opponents by 10ft, so you could say it is comparable. But to get d8+4 out of a cantrip the wizard has to use a touch spell, Shocking grasp. Problem isn't with Cleric -- wizards just aren't up with the other pc classes yet. Hopefully, next update will revise spells. (this one sure didn't).
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