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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 2:15AM
#11
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I agree with a return/continuation of the Primal Power source/Spirits/whatever they would call it i like it for it's own sake and as munnition to defend from the "druid more like cleric with a nature domain throw out that superflous class" crowd. I would like to see the Primal concept return, in the way that nature magic is treated separately from Divine and Arcane.
I see Primal magic to be closer to Arcane than Divine though.
Druids (the spellcasters, not the pseudo-werebeasts-combat gish) should be rather similar to Wizards (or even a wizard speciality that uses primal magic instead of Arcane).
Druids should learn spells like Wizards.
As for other Primal 4e classes.. No non-magical class should use Primal. Barbarians are primitive raging warriors, not magicans, and if they would also become able to use primal magic, then that ability should be separate from their normal abilities.
I'm interested in this in why you want the druid to be closer to a wizard.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 2:35AM
#12
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I'm interested in this in why you want the druid to be closer to a wizard.
Mostly because of the general feel of the class, but also to separate them from clerics.
Druids are usually pictured as being thought their craft by other druids. They are thematically big on secret lore, druid circles and societies and so on.
In my mind they are a lore based class, thus, they should learn spells, not just recieve them.
It fits well with druids learning spells from other druids. To have druids learn spells from tomes on druidic lore is not a long step from that. I could also picture them learning spells by studying nature and animals (the free spells learned when leveling up?). Maybe they could learn spells from studying defeated foes or special places (DM says 'Here you can roll against Nature Lore and learn a spell', that kind of thing.)
On the second point, if Druids are divine casters with a different spell list, then the difference between a Druid and a Cleric with a Nature or Animal domain becomes just academical. This is probably what has forced Druids more and more towards the shapeshifter-warrior niche, just to separate them from other divine casters.
One could object that bringing them closer to wizards create the exact same problem, just with Wizards instead. Perhaps.. but I still feel that to be more fitting. It fits thematically, it explains why Druids do not walk around in platemail (if Primal spells are affected by armor similar to Arcane).
Also, historical Druids were more magicans than priests (although they were both).
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 2:41AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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For me, the mechanical impact would be expressed in exactly what spells are on what list. So instead of a class with a list of spells for that class like they had in 3e, they'd have a primal list of spells that all primal classes would draw from. They kind of did this all ready in class design by selecting spells from another, more extensive class list (wizard -> duskblade). Making it an obvious means of differentiation between classes in general and spell casters in particular would be very helpful. In a game full of optional systems, having some flavour headings like power source could really guide us through it. If the psionic power source is listed as typically using spell points, for example, it sets psionics apart without requiring that they use spell points. Edit: forgot to mention that it's a good way of splitting up the spells as well. Divine magic is totally different from arcane magic largely because of what spells they get, psionics has always sort of struggled to find its own identity in spells but there are definite themes that could be expressed through a different spell list than arcane or divine. Primal is the same in that the flavour of the spell selection is unique to that group of classes.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 2:45AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2006
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I like the idea of primal power source, because it helps to made feel those classes are different, and it is only background, it doesn´t change the gameplay.
"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)
Book 13 Anaclet 23
Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 2:59AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
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Druids are usually pictured as being thought their craft by other druids. They are thematically big on secret lore, druid circles and societies and so on.
In my mind they are a lore based class, thus, they should learn spells, not just recieve them.
It fits well with druids learning spells from other druids. To have druids learn spells from tomes on druidic lore is not a long step from that. I could also picture them learning spells by studying nature and animals (the free spells learned when leveling up?). Maybe they could learn spells from studying defeated foes or special places (DM says 'Here you can roll against Nature Lore and learn a spell', that kind of thing.)
You and I think very differently about Druids  .
I see the young Druid-to-be as being drawn to Nature and abiding there alone to gain a deeper inight into it (rather than seeking out, say, a mentor or tome). Perhaps they might learn a great deal from discovering their instinctual bond with Nature. OTOH, they are just as likely to learn from an animal, spirit, or fey guide as they are from another Druid. In fact, in my view, one Druid may never meet another, and still be powerful and knowledgeable.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 4:07AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Dec 29, 2007
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I'm ambivalent about power sources. Ideally I’d like the fluff to clearly indicate that differing circles may have differing approaches to how they think about their powers. Personally, I liked both the “nature as a distinct force” approach of 4E and the “nature as aspects of the gods” we saw in 3E FR. I was less enthused about the generic 3E “Nature as an unspecified divine power” approach, but can’t really give a good reason why. In any event, I’d like all of the above to be available to players who care about the source of their powers. I think that would give the class a little bit more mystery and/or depth. I’d also like them to have pet, shapeshifter and nature magic specialties for the player to choose between. While the 3E druid was a monster that could do everything, it annoyed me that the 4E one was so focused on wildshape at the expense of other flavours.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 5:05AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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I dont care how a druid gets their powers, I just dont want 4th level druids turing into invisible air elementals flying around, and casting spells.
Because of shape shifting and pets, the druid class has become one of the most power-gamed classes that there ever has been. I'd like some optional rules that make you get up to 8th level before you can start shape shifting, and when you do its EXTREMELY limited (must not be over medium sized, animals only, limited amount of time, etc) and just go back to when druids wernt breaking the system.
This is the biggest issue I had with both 3.5 and 4.0... I want characters to be heroic not superheros, and theres a very big difference. I need to have rules that let me do that.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 5:12AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I do not know what a "return of primal" would mean for the druid beyond 1 sentence: "Druids might worship spirirts of nature." Done.
You're welcome.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 5:35AM
#19
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I do not know what a "return of primal" would mean for the druid beyond 1 sentence: "Druids might worship spirirts of nature." Done. You're welcome.
Just to clarify, animists dont “worship” nature spirits. The sentence would be more like, “Druids respect nature spirits”. Its more about good neighborly relations.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 5:35AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2003
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I do not know what a "return of primal" would mean for the druid beyond 1 sentence: "Druids might worship spirirts of nature." Done. You're welcome.
I think they are wanting to have Druids/Primal to have its own spell lists seperate from Arcane and Divine? Maybe? I'm not really too sure there either.
In my case...even as someone who liked to play Druids...I find the idea of a 'primal powersource' to be well...just there to fill a hole. Divine covers the idea of gaining your powers from an outside force that you 'worship'. Druids just worship nature over worshiping gods...the same way the Paladin in some editions was a powerful but divine force of LG...not of the gods, they just usually followed a god as well.
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