I realize that your efforts in regards to D&D: Next are largely comprised of madly jabbing the nostalgia button in order to end partisan game bickering and bring fans of all iterations back under one roof...but what are you doing for people who aren't D&D fans yet? You know...the ones who gave up D&D for other games, or the ones for whom D&D will be their first foray into the hobby? How is D&D Next supposed to win us over?
Short answer: Nothing.
5e is all about consolidating existing D&D fans.
Long answer: My guesses go like this:
New-to-RP potential gamers: 5e will depend on name recognition to attract potential gamers to D&D instead of competing systems, and on the enthusiasm of existing fans to indoctrinate new players into the oddities and prejudices of the classic game. That some may be repelled from the hobby or quickly move on to more modern games must be deemed acceptable losses.
New-to-D&D gamers: Gamers who started with games other than D&D and have never tried it are total write-offs in 5e's book. They've already played other games that have had to eke out an existance in the market on the strength of quality or niche-specialization. To them 5e will seem like the backwards, quixotic, system that it's trying so hard to be.
Past D&Ders who have moved on to other games: Are a prime target of 5e. The appeal to nostalgia could still work on them, in spite of their exposure to better games, because of the strength of those early experiences. It's still important for 5e to at least not suck too hard, while doing that, though, and that's a tall order.
Former gamers who started with D&D: 5e's prime non-gamer targets, nostalgic gamers drifting back to the hobby after a long absence are not tainted by the rancor of the edition wars, nor by exposure to more modern D&D or other more sophisticated or niche games. 5e can apeal to their sense of nostalgia, and perhaps delight them with the few half-measure improvements they might sneak in.
I'm not particularly attached to Basic, AD&D, 3.x OR 4th edition, so trying to hit my nostalgia button will not get you my money. It will take more than a half-baked 3rd edition clone to win me and other non D&D fans over. You're going to have to do something new and interesting this time around. You're going to have to do more than just ressurect legacy mechanics...you're going to have to come up with newer and better ones. You're going to have to address the problems that previous editions had and fix them. You're going to have to figure out what D&D is FOR, and make it the best it can be.
5e is not for you, then.
Here's the thing...your goal of uniting fans of all editions under one rooftop...it's not going to happen. Old schoolers, Paizils and 4rries have completely incompatible play styles. These camps do not WANT to be able to sit at the same table together. ...
If not the elephant in the room, this is at least a rhino.
Though the split among classic, 3.x and 4e fans is treated as a sort of dreadful failure, the truth is that, for each faction, it was a wonderous success. For the 4e fan, it wasn't just that the game got better, technically, it's that there were fewer 3.5 system-masters tearing it apart at their tables. The fans of classic D&D no longer had to deal with the young 'munchkins' coming in and whining for player-privilege. And the fans of 3.5 got their own custom-made continuation of the game they loved and a company anxious to cater to their preferences in open-playtested Pathfinder & ever-responsive Paizo.
It was one of the best failures /ever/. For everyone except WotC. So they have to do their best to ruin it.
Furthermore, I'm guessing that you've pretty much got this ONE chance to score a runaway hit with D&D before the property gets mothballed for about 10 years and resurrected as a breafast cereal or something. To put it simply: You're failing.
That's a nearly unthinkable eventuality, but realistically it could happen. D20 would continue, though, so fans of 3.x/Pathfinder would hardly notice the death of official D&D, and fans of the classic game would still have retro-clones.
Fans of 4e and those with hopes for the nominal 'first' RPG to continue to grow and evolve into something /better/ would have to move on to other systems, though.
Charting the current trajectory of the project, I predict that all you will accomplish is publishing everyone's second favorite D&D edition.
That would be wild success! Really, that's what they're aiming for, I think. A D&D that's broad and inoffensive enough that every D&D'er will buy and play it because there's new material and organized play for it, and they can't always find a game of their prefered edition...
In a sense, D&D has /always/ done that. There have been lots of fantastic RPGs released over the past decades, but no matter how good your favorite one may be, it's much, much easier to find a game of D&D. D&D's the game everyone's heard of. It's the game that's in every store, at every convention.
You want to unite the D&D playerbase? Start thinking about what you can do to win over non D&Ders. The ones who don't care about tradition, gaming ideologies, or old school orthodoxy. That's the easy part...just write the absolute best action/adventure high fantasy game you can write and then let us playtest the bejeezus out of it. The best part? That will win over the existing D&Ders too. The ones you want at least. The ones who insist on playing a chandler for 20 levels can suck it.
My guess is tha they figured they tried that with 4e, and for whatever reason it didn't work. So, they'll try mucking things up a bit and appealing to nostalgia. Never mind that they tried that with Essentials and it didn't work, either.
Don't get me wrong...D&D is...adequate. While it's not my preferred game, I certainly don't hate it. It's just that, given my druthers, there are other games I would much rather be playing (BASH! UE; Fate; Savage Worlds; Hellas, etc.). No verson of D&D has ever really hit that "sweet spot" as far as I'm concerned. What does D&D: Next have to offer people like me, with no strong brand loyalty to any one particular version fo the game?
Nothing if you're not willing to try. D&D should focus first and foremost on its existing audience and past audience. The once and current fans. WotC learned the hard way with their last sub-edition (Essentials) that catering to potential fans and a theoretical audience does not earn you as much money as catering to actual fans and your real audience.
You're a great example. The playtest is free. The buy-in is nothing save time, and the game is quick so even that is low. And you still haven't even tried it. If they can't get you to try a free product why should they spend extra time and money tailoring a paid product on you?
They're going to release 5e. It's going to be nostalgia inspired, with elements all all previous editions. There are going to be optional rules for multiple different play styles. It's going to reach as wide of a D&D playing audience as it potentially can. Striving to grab a whole new audience on top of that is greedy. Yes, if they're smart they'll do something completely new and different with rules modules, adding options unlike those seen before in D&D. It doesn't hurt the base game or appeal to the target audience but as it's an option it doesn't have to. Maybe that will float your boat or lure in some alternate players.
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They're going to release 5e. It's going to be nostalgia inspired, with elements all all previous editions. There are going to be optional rules for multiple different play styles. It's going to reach as wide of a D&D playing audience as it potentially can. Striving to grab a whole new audience on top of that is greedy.
Maybe I'm cynical (OK, there's no 'maybe'), but 5e's re-unification goal is, at bottom, a business strategy to take customers away from Pathfinder and other retro-clones, and get them back into WotC's income stream. That's not only 'greedy,' it's a win-lose proposition, it might even turn out to be negative-sum (win WotC market share, but shrink the market). OTOH, going for new customers grows the market, which is positive-sum and win-win. Still greedy, but enlightened greed.
TonyVargas and TheJester are both wrong, and are repeating two long-standing bits of nonsense that need to die now.
1.) "4e was an attempt to cater to potential new D&D players and it failed, so all such attempts will fail." This is a crock. I'll grant you 4e's sales must have been severely underwhelming for us to be in the boat we ar ein today. I'll even grant that it was, in part, attempt to pull in audiences for CCGs and Video Games by adopting thie rmechanics. But that does not mean all such attempts are doomed. If that were the case, WotC and Hasbro would throw in the towel now if they had a lick of sense (and complete market domination says yes, they do). There is an avenue to new players, but, it turns out, it is not to take what was a too-complex game (3e) and make it just as complex but i a new direction (4e). They will need to strip down the rules and even the overdone fluff and flavor text in order to reboot the franchise with new audiences. See what DC and Marvel are doing over in comics for an analogy. Which leads us to:
2.) "DDN is all about nostalgia and pulling in lapsed old-schoolers." I have no idea who first promulgated this one, but every time I see it, I can't help but suspect that whoever is saying it hasn't even read the playtest packet, much less played it. The DDN packets we've seen to date have presented an experience much closer to 3e than to ODD, ADD or even 2nd ed. If they were wanting simply to pick up the 40-year-olds with fond memories, they wouldn't bother with any of this. They'd simply reprint the blue box and that's it. Yes, they are reprinting the original 3 books in lovely collectors' editions...that's a PARALLEL process, not part of DDN. That reprinting is the part which is relying on nostalgia. Not a playtest which has so far included a half dozen core mechanics entirely new to the franchise. Suggesting Hasbro/WotC want to sell products to nostalgiasts is supportable, so long as you're pointing at those reprints. Suggesting DDN is driven by the nostalgia market or old-school gamers, is not a valid perspective.
Doesn't seem very trollish to me, he asked legit questions.
The fireball thing's not a big deal I guess, it just seems like a convenient way to give a similar ability to multiple classes and everyone will know where to look it up.
This is not a troll but as a player that has played and enjoyed dnd since middle school in the 80's I am asking the same question myself.
others in my group are as well
"I'd rather play 2e" is a direct quote from more than one person in the group (we play 4e both online via rptools and in person alternating weeks). Unless things radically change/improve between now and release it is almost certain that my gaming group will move to a different system entirely when our current games wrap up.
Given how much it's already changed, i expect alot of adjustments. Yet to come.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Does this pertain to those who chose not to play D&D because they didn't like it or are you talking about those who have never played the game before, because there's a really big difference.
They don't have to do anything to bring new players to the game during this playtest, there is already a game in print that they are trying to sell. These players need to wait until Next is on the shelves and the marketing department is selling it to the masses.
For those who hate D&D there's no help. If you don't like older versions of D&D then you ain't likely to like Next. Keep playing your preferred game and leave the playtest forums to those of us who are interested in the new version of the game and are here to help make it the game we want to play.
Either way the answer is likely "not a damned thing."
They're going to release 5e. It's going to be nostalgia inspired, with elements all all previous editions. There are going to be optional rules for multiple different play styles. It's going to reach as wide of a D&D playing audience as it potentially can. Striving to grab a whole new audience on top of that is greedy.
Maybe I'm cynical (OK, there's no 'maybe'), but 5e's re-unification goal is, at bottom, a business strategy to take customers away from Pathfinder and other retro-clones, and get them back into WotC's income stream. That's not only 'greedy,' it's a win-lose proposition, it might even turn out to be negative-sum (win WotC market share, but shrink the market). OTOH, going for new customers grows the market, which is positive-sum and win-win. Still greedy, but enlightened greed.
Except tried a "new customer" approach very much with 4e, with a game partially designed to appeal to MMOers followed by Essentials, a line very much aimed at new players. Paired with Enounters, a play program first and foremost aimed at bringing in new players. And 4e still died a quick death.
Part of that can be blamed on the marketing department, which hasn't advertised D&D outside of its base audience in years. They have no idea how to reach new people. Right now they seem to be happy letting newspapers do the advertising for them, but most of the articles are blogs on nerd sections of the papers and still aren't reaching far.
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say? Spoiler:Show
My Webcomic
Updated Tuesday and Thursday
Read my blog on the WotC Community Site (updated irregularly to avoid spamming the "Featured Blogger" list).
Except tried a "new customer" approach very much with 4e, with a game partially designed to appeal to MMOers followed by Essentials, a line very much aimed at new players. Paired with Enounters, a play program first and foremost aimed at bringing in new players. And 4e still died a quick death.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Which will be going away, because according to Mearls playtesters are complaining that they don't "feel" like 3E sorcerers...
I interpreted Mearls' statement not as a rejection of the transforming sorcerer, but as an admission that it was a mistake for the first sorcerer they showcased to wear heavy armor and transform into a melee beast, because that's not something sorcerers have historically done.
Part of {the early death of 4e} can be blamed on the marketing department, which hasn't advertised D&D outside of its base audience in years. They have no idea how to reach new people. Right now they seem to be happy letting newspapers do the advertising for them, but most of the articles are blogs on nerd sections of the papers and still aren't reaching far.
Now that I can agree with. If there is a branch of WotC/Hasbro that should be fired, en masse, it is the marketing department. That the franchise has managed to remain the market leader (and that only by the skin of its teeth) is due entirely to the brand name legacy of Dungeons and Dragons, not at all due to any serious efforts on their part to actually promote the product. I have golden dreams in which, once DDN takes some sort of final shape, it is launched with a new cartoon series, mass-media promotion, and ends up under every christmas tree in the world. Bringing back older and established gamers is well and good, but it's the twelve-year-old newbies who must be the lifeblood of the new edition if the brand is to survive.
