How do you think it would turn out in their minds if I did save it for later?
It all depends on details and delivery, but I might be concerned that...
They might be resentful. (Why didn't you just help us if you could have? Why didn't you do this yourself?)
They might feel "carried." (So you were just there helping us all along? Why didn't you think we could handle this?)
These aren't necessarily bad results, if you're okay with it. If you're "looking at your NPCs through crosshairs," then it can work out really well. It also depends a great deal on your player/DM dynamic.
That's interesting. I'm glad you pointed that out. I'll keep it in mind. Thank you.
I've always held that bards made much better DMPCs than any other character. It doesn't necessarily have to be statted out as a bard, just presented as such, but the sheer versatility has several good points:
They can reasonably be expected to have any skill or lore you want them to have without breaking suspension of disbelief.
They tend to act largely as a support class, which lets your PCs shine whilst you deal with buffing and occasional healing, smoothing out combats.
They can act as social catalysts, bringing your players into contact with other NPCs. They can also impart information on said NPCs, which makes them seem more human (ie: "Lord Blackbore distrusts elves because his elf-wife left him ten years back")
They are suitably mysterious enough that they can vanish when no longer needed without undue comment.
In terms of roleplaying, the trick is to slowly draw your players in. Start slowly. A 'the whole kingdom is about to perish' is a good plot, but it's like throwing your players in the deep end. Try keeping them in the wilderness, finding an abandoned town - mysterious tracks - fight some monsters in the woods, then let them discover a larger plot. One big enough that they feel an urgent need to stop it, but not so big that it couldn't be kept secret until the players stumble across it. Start feeding them roleplaying questions in terms of choices. Keep them small at first: which path to take, travelling NPCs who can be questioned, the last enemy surrenders, village ask them to intervene in a family feud, they come across two strangers duelling, enemies taunt them while in combat, et cetera. Once they've built up a bit of a character identity, defeated the local Bad Guy and earned some reward/renown, then have them sent to the city to report to the king or whatnot. A few of the local NPCs could add in some optional sidequests as well, to help you flesh out the city and give the players some connection to it/introduce them to useful people (thieves guild, sage, blacksmith...) Whether they complete these or not is up to them and their characters, so ensure you create a range so they do actually make a choice between them. Remember, all choices the players make are roleplaying, so try and feed them lots of choice.
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Presentation and personality are super important for a situation like this. The PCs having buy-in on it (and in turn the characters giving buy-in )is super important too.
Just last night, my group lost an NPC that had been following them around for a month now, the orc Yaka'po. You see, Yaka'po was the remaining orc of a group of 10 that the PCs had interacted with after killing their leader. See, when the orcs first appeared, the actual players were aprehensive and (though 3rd level) were worried about their chances against the orcs (HINT: they would have butchered the poor green-skins) so they parlayed and the Oruk (a homebrew northlands Orc-kin) Barbarian ended up challenging and killing the orcs leader in a single blow ("...that was easy!" exclaimed the player LOL) and so demanded the fealty of the orcs.
After initial try-outs left only 4 orcs remaining, one of whom was badly injured, the PCs traveled onward...with all 4 remaining orcs in tow. Well, all 4 until the injured one died. Then the 3rd died against some cockatrice...cockatrices?...cocka..whatever, against multiple cockatrice. This all happened in short order in one game...this left the two remaining orcs, a pair of oath-brothers named Or'tu and Yaka'po. Well, they hung around with the PCs for a couple sessions before Or'tu meant his death actually at the blade of the cunning Yaka'po who, in his evil little heart, felt he could curry favor with the PC barbarian Oruk by slaying Or'tu for "planning to betray them" (poor Or'tu never was...he was too dumb to think of treachery). Well, last night poor Or'tu died...ironically fighting against a bunch of orcs alongside the party. Sadly, he even had gained enough experience to level up but never got the chance to rest and level.
When Yaka'po died, everyone was bummed out a bit (though equally excited that they had managed to survive a VERY tough fight alongside some hobgoblin companions they'd crossed paths with in the woods). They even buried the orc after giving him last rights. Yeah, the good-aligned party took the time to pray over and bury the Chaotic Evil orc. Why? Cuz he'd fought alongside them and he felt like a part of the group.
In the same night, the same barbarian PC reunited with his dwarven bard friend Multru...and now they've pal'd up with him and he has decided to travel with them for a little bit.
None of these characters are DMPCs though...they're simply NPCs that the group has added to their roster for various reasons. I did not play kid gloves with them, I did not give them preferential treatment and I did not make decisions for them...I make them roll morale (Yaka'po and Or'tu actually botched that in their first battle alongside the party against and Ettin...and they ran...boy did they get a stern talking to after that...) and if their personality doesn't make a choice or action immediately apparent I roll for it...more often or not actually I end up rolling for it.
The long-winded point I'm trying to make is...if the characters WANT an NPC to be with them and accompany them, they aren't a DMPC at that point...they're a potentially very valuable ally...maybe even a friend. When the ally struggles they will want him to succeed and encourage them...when the ally DOES succeed they will cheer. The important thing is though, at all times is it the players choice to spend time with the NPC...just as it remains the NPC's choice to remain with the PC's.
So, basically what it boils down to is, instead of putting a DMPC in the group, instead make a few characters with compelling personalities, traits and reasons that that NPC would want to party with the group and why the PCs would like to have them along. Then, if they decide that they don't want them with them...well, roll with it because, hey, it's their choice.
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My style of DMPC generally comes in two forms. The first is a combat-oriented one that serves as cannon fodder in battles - they exist to buffer the party from danger by walking into traps, holding off monsters long enough for the party to get their act together, or to demonstrate the lethality of a monster.
EX1: A village is threatened by a monster attack, there could be minion villagers and guardsmen, with the monsters focusing on putting down the guards first while boasting what fine ornaments the locals would make. This gives the players some leeway with saving people. The fodder is also very useful for escort missions or situations that otherwise would necessaitate a player to be a benchwarmer, since leaving the object unguarded would be otherwise unrealistic.
EX2: There is a DMPC ranger tagging along with the party because he feels that something is wrong with the woodlands that he watches over. It turns out there is a wyvern, who swoops in and strikes him with its barbed tail. The ranger is now poisoned and may die without intervention. This gives players a chance to save him if they so wish, and it demonstrates that the Wyvern can fly and has a deadly stinger. Cinematics like this help with getting players into the proper mindset for encounters with specific monsters. The same may go for situations involving traps.
The other type of DMPC is a merchant, who serves to bring the players items and some kind of information. This character allows the DM to say in-game "I would look for that item you want, but no promises", which serves roleplaying and as a means of the DM to regulate items available to the party. Ditto for information, but the character is less reliable in this regard - there should be a wide variety of NPCs to help supply the various sidequests and main plotline. As always, these DMPCs should be able to die due to the situation, whatever that may be. Just be sure that your plot threads are accounted for.
"The word Live is Evil spelt backwards."
"Flaws are what make our perfections shine so brightly"
In the game I'm currently playing, there's a DMCP. She's a Leader class because that's what was needed to round out the party, but she's not leading the group in-game. Most of the time, anyway. It's an Underdark campaign, and she's a Drow paladin. Her presence in our party was a condition set by the Drow priestess we're working for, to keep an eye on us or something like that. Basically, if we enter a populated area, she nominally takes charge, but when we're traversing through the wilds (which is most of the time) she just fulfills her combat role. She does sometimes make other contributions, but always via skill checks so that she's not an infallible source.
First off, I sincerely apologize, not only for the length of the following message, but for the content. I know how much everyone hates the concept of a DMPC, but, please . . . here me out. So, about 2 weeks ago, I got a 4e campaign started with 5 of my friends, none of which had ever played D&D. I don't have much experience either, but I have the most out of the group, so I was elected as DM. Just FYI, here's our little party: Human Paladin Tiefling Warlock Half-Orc Barbarian Elf Ranger Human Cleric
That's a reasonably well-balanced party. It lacks a primary controller, but depending on character details has possibly as many as three secondary controllers (and a party with no controller is possibly easier for a DM to adapt to than a party missing any of the other roles). With a primary leader and a secondary leader, there's plenty of healing. And it has three primary strikers, so it can lay out the damage.
So frankly I suggest that any NPC you saddle them with actually be a burden most of the time, and at best hold its own in combat. And this NPC should be going with them for a specific short time and specific reason, after which he is not a constant presence. (He can still be a character in town. Or not. Whatever makes sense.)
Definitely NOT a DMPC. An NPC that is going to hang with the PCs should be built as a monster or a companion character, and do very little on his own initiative.
The story, in a nutshell, is an ancient dragon that has long been a friend of the kingdom just attacked a small village and has declared himself the new ruler of the kingdom. The party is heading to the capital to inform the king of these events. When we first started, I threw about 5 goblin minions with 1 HP and 1 Brute with 27 HP, just to get everyone used to the idea of combat. They had no problems at all, but complained later that I was going to easy. So, in our last session, I threw 8 Kobolds out with 27 HP each. I had to pull some elves out of the forest (kind of like pulling them out of my rear, but it'll fit into the story) to save my party. Now that they've had a taste of a harder difficulty, they decided they wanted it hard, but not to hard. This is where the DMPC idea first came in.
Shove the idea back out. You don't need a DMPC or even an ally NPC; you need a DM who is better at designing encounters. Read more on encounter design (the DMG has a good section on it, don't know about the DM kit).
The "baseline" standard encounter is one same-level standard monster per PC. There are a number of changes you can make to that lineup without changing the difficulty, for example replace one monster with 4-5 minions. You can alter the difficulty by adding or removing a monster, by upgrading or downgrading a monster, by picking a higher or lower level monster. Play with it. Don't expect to get it right the first time, or every time (be thankful that those elves showed up when the did). Don't be afraid to let the players know you're still figuring things out - if they have brains, they know that already.
I had already been planning to throw the stereotypical Merlin style crazy wizard into the story once they reach the capital, but then I realized how great of a help he could be to the party, not only in combat, but also in the RP portion. Again, I ask you to here me out.
Ask the players questions. They meet the crazy wizard - before you let them know he's crazy, point at one of the players and say "YOU recognize him - where from? Why is it that you don't quite trust him?" Work the answers into his craziness.
Right now, I don't have anyway to really interact with the PCs, like, for example, when trying to get them to follow through to some key information, or into some good RP scenarios. The RP experience they have now come from RPGs like Skyrim, so I thought a "guide", if you will, would be a great way to do this. The crazy old wizard could mutter something about a book he remembers reading about this particular dungeon, or use a Gandalf style, "the air doesn't smell so foul here," line. Now, don't get me wrong here; I'm not trying to drag my players around with no care for what their characters decide to do. But I still don't want him to feel at all like the typical NPC. I really want him to feel like a member of the group, someone that everyone comes to know and love.
Play him as the dotty uncle. The one that the little kids love and the grownups enjoy but don't quite trust to be sensible.
He'll be just enough to give them a nudge here or there, and give them that Gandalf or Brom style support, until it isn't needed anymore, and, then at that point, kill the wizard in such a way that the party really feels the loss of the character, and it really hurts to see him go.
The dotty uncle doesn't go adventuring much. Oh, he has adventures... by dotty-uncle and little-kid standards. His swash-buckling days are either in the distant past or completely imaginary. At least you're pretty sure they are. He does disappear for weeks or months at a time and come back with new highly-improbable stories, though...
...so don't kill him off. He can stay on as comic relief - and occasionally bring something real.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
These guys have no roleplaying experience whatsoever, aside from the aforementioned video games, so I'm having some trouble getting the party to discuss things as a party. These are a lot of people who argue for the sake of arguement, and love to crack jokes and make refrences at the worst times. I know that a lot of parties have similar problems, but most of them have the experience somewhere in the group to get everything back on track. We do not. If I could have a character that everyone knew and respected as a member of the party that could ask a question of the noisiest member, or make a statement that brings everything back to earth, I think it would be the best way for these particular people to be roped back in, at least until we get deeper into it. As for the combat, I've had to do a lot of spoon feeding and roll fudging to get everyone to understand how to fight and survive. I feel that if I could show a bit more by example how it's done, they would learn a lot more quickly. Hope that clarifies somewhat.
As long as the DMPC isn't there to out-shine the party and steal the glory, using one could work well. The players are likely accustomed to the simple scenario of walking up to an NPC who immediately tells them exactly what their characters need to know.
Without that simple mechanism, they don't realize just how many options they have. Especially since those games are usually one-player vs. all the monsters. Even the useful NPCs are usually just an excuse to hone pickpocket and sneak attack skills. If you can actually speak to them, you are usually confined to 3 or 4 choices of what to say. And no matter what the player picks, the result is essentially the same.
I introduced a DMPC for the same purposes this summer after many years of playing without a DMPC (I didn't even know such a term existed up to that point.). At first, I only wanted to have somebody that could boost the story. Then I realized that the other people I play with aren't likely to DM and I wanted a chance to play a character, to level him up, to build his story based on what choices he made. It wasn't quite as satisfying in some ways as being a player in someone else's world, but in certain ways it was better. Nobody knows a world as well as the DM who invented it. The character may not have all that information, but what information he does have can be colorfully role-played and described with the same enthusiasm you had when you made the world.
If the DMPC is a tool that you can use to increase the player's enjoyment of the game, then by all means use one. If you can get more fun out of the game, that's another bonus. If the players feel out-shined by your Gandalf taking the crystal ball from their halfling rogue or annoyed when the sword that cut the ring from Sauron is reforged and given to your Aragorn instead of their barbarian fighter, you may have a problem. If the players begin discussing with one another the unfairness of it all, ask if they can discuss it in character...
One thing I found that helps, DMPC aside, when the players aren't interacting with one another... have them take turns. After the first player has describes what his character says or does, turn to the next player, RE-DESCRIBE THE SITUATION from that player's viewpoint, and THEN ask how their character responds to that situation; you may even go so far as to remind the player of personality traits that would affect how they respond.
For example... the characters (orc barbarian) and (paladin) meet a guard at a city gate and he is asking them what business they have in the city.
Player 1, the halforc bbn: "Our business is our own". DM, playing the guard: The guard says.. "And this city is our own, so unless you care to share what that business is, orc, feel free to stand on your own side of our walls." DM, addressing player 2, the paladin: Your character was chosen by the king to travel here and sort out this business with the dragon. You were chosen by the church as the warrior to fulfill the church's duties to the king. The half-orc is a bit uncouth and uncivilized, but like it or not he is also on the king's business. The guard is just doing his duty, you realize, even if the illiterate half-orc doesn't seem to grasp that. What does the noble warrior do or say that will get him and his companions through the gate so that they may perform this important duty without breaking the chivalric code of the Shining Knights by being discourteous? Player 2, the paladin (thinking for a minute): "This city is the king's city and we are the king's men on the kings' business, Sir. I thank you for being diligent in such troubled times. I'm sure the king will be grateful as well. Could you be so kind as to have one of your men give us an escort to the castle or at least to a nearby inn until such time as we are summoned? Again, I thank you."
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells? DM: Awesome. Yes.
These guys have no roleplaying experience whatsoever, aside from the aforementioned video games, so I'm having some trouble getting the party to discuss things as a party. These are a lot of people who argue for the sake of arguement, and love to crack jokes and make refrences at the worst times. I know that a lot of parties have similar problems, but most of them have the experience somewhere in the group to get everything back on track. We do not. If I could have a character that everyone knew and respected as a member of the party that could ask a question of the noisiest member, or make a statement that brings everything back to earth, I think it would be the best way for these particular people to be roped back in, at least until we get deeper into it. As for the combat, I've had to do a lot of spoon feeding and roll fudging to get everyone to understand how to fight and survive. I feel that if I could show a bit more by example how it's done, they would learn a lot more quickly. Hope that clarifies somewhat.
As long as the DMPC isn't there to out-shine the party and steal the glory, using one could work well. The players are likely accustomed to the simple scenario of walking up to an NPC who immediately tells them exactly what their characters need to know.
Without that simple mechanism, they don't realize just how many options they have. Especially since those games are usually one-player vs. all the monsters. Even the useful NPCs are usually just an excuse to hone pickpocket and sneak attack skills. If you can actually speak to them, you are usually confined to 3 or 4 choices of what to say. And no matter what the player picks, the result is essentially the same.
I introduced a DMPC for the same purposes this summer after many years of playing without a DMPC (I didn't even know such a term existed up to that point.). At first, I only wanted to have somebody that could boost the story. Then I realized that the other people I play with aren't likely to DM and I wanted a chance to play a character, to level him up, to build his story based on what choices he made. It wasn't quite as satisfying in some ways as being a player in someone else's world, but in certain ways it was better. Nobody knows a world as well as the DM who invented it. The character may not have all that information, but what information he does have can be colorfully role-played and described with the same enthusiasm you had when you made the world.
If the DMPC is a tool that you can use to increase the player's enjoyment of the game, then by all means use one. If you can get more fun out of the game, that's another bonus. If the players feel out-shined by your Gandalf taking the crystal ball from their halfling rogue or annoyed when the sword that cut the ring from Sauron is reforged and given to your Aragorn instead of their barbarian fighter, you may have a problem. If the players begin discussing with one another the unfairness of it all, ask if they can discuss it in character...
One thing I found that helps, DMPC aside, when the players aren't interacting with one another... have them take turns. After the first player has describes what his character says or does, turn to the next player, RE-DESCRIBE THE SITUATION from that player's viewpoint, and THEN ask how their character responds to that situation; you may even go so far as to remind the player of personality traits that would affect how they respond.
For example... the characters (orc barbarian) and (paladin) meet a guard at a city gate and he is asking them what business they have in the city.
Player 1, the halforc bbn: "Our business is our own". DM, playing the guard: The guard says.. "And this city is our own, so unless you care to share what that business is, orc, feel free to stand on your own side of our walls." DM, addressing player 2, the paladin: Your character was chosen by the king to travel here and sort out this business with the dragon. You were chosen by the church as the warrior to fulfill the church's duties to the king. The half-orc is a bit uncouth and uncivilized, but like it or not he is also on the king's business. The guard is just doing his duty, you realize, even if the illiterate half-orc doesn't seem to grasp that. What does the noble warrior do or say that will get him and his companions through the gate so that they may perform this important duty without breaking the chivalric code of the Shining Knights by being discourteous? Player 2, the paladin (thinking for a minute): "This city is the king's city and we are the king's men on the kings' business, Sir. I thank you for being diligent in such troubled times. I'm sure the king will be grateful as well. Could you be so kind as to have one of your men give us an escort to the castle or at least to a nearby inn until such time as we are summoned? Again, I thank you."
Thank you very much! You summed up my thoughts about this plan much better than I did. He isn't there to be my perfect little trophy PC, he's there for story, and for me to get a bit more immeresed in the action with my friends. Simply building him as a NPC or Monster wouldn't do enough, which is why I went down the DMPC path. If you don't mind, I'd like to use your example to show them the concept of presenting the situation.
I'm not so sure it is a good idea. One of the major problem is that the dmpc will be either undervalued, or overvalued by the dm. Under, and the party can miss something that a normal player might have thought of, over, and the party lets him do everything. The only times I've ever seen a dmpc work was when it was a follower(3.5) or treated as a pet.
If you do go through with it, have one of the players handle the battle aspect of the guy. This gives you less work and keeps all temptation of metagaming dm out of the way. Remember, the pcs will notice what the dmpc does, and will follow that person.
