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Locked: Keep Gaming Evil!!!
9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 5:54PM #1
Baalbamoth
Date Joined: Jan 17, 2012
Posts: 479
I dont know about the rest of you, but when I started gaming... it was a considered an evil and rebellous hobby. Banned by churches and put right up there with satanic heavy metal music as something no child should ever be allowed to enjoy.... and me and Jack Black loved em both and at the same time.

I think that greatly enhanced the attraction of D&D to new and young gamers... gaming was evil, the quick and attractive lure of the dark side worked very well for TSR and brought about what we now call the golden age of gaming (right durring the iron age of comic books for that matter)...

Now I know Hasbro isnt going to let us go all satanic etc, or start putting bare nippled slave girls on the covers of every book...

BUT..

I wonder how the system will handle more adult themed issues in the game.

lets be honest... the best TV shows on right now are "Game of Thrones" "Boardwalk Empire" "Dexter" "Sparticus" "true blood" "strike back" "Sons of Anarchy" and all the other shows which come on after 10:00 PM, mostly on cable due to serious adult content.

Just like these shows I want my game to include "some" sex (though generally I'm too embarassed to describe the details of this in a game), gory violence, brutal and depraved antagonists, serious moral delemas (what does the paladin do when the anti-paladin burns his daughter alive and screaming right in front of him and says if he dosent want his other daughter to die, he'll kill an innocent child and loose his soul etc.),

and all the standard evils common to great fantasy and horror books and novels...  human sacrifice, rotting corpses and necromancy, demonic rituals, vile and evil alien gods, etc. etc. 

you guys got any thoughts on this? will there be another "book of vile darkness" or have we seen the end of adult themed D&D books?    
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:02PM #2
Saelorn
Date Joined: May 27, 2012
Posts: 3,119
I have nothing against a more "mature" line of products, but I would rather they keep that stuff separate from the main product line.  

In general, if a story can be told without those elements, then including them will not enhance it in any way.
The metagame is not the game.
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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:03PM #3
professordaddy
Date Joined: May 25, 2012
Posts: 1,394
Your initial premise is as wrong as can be.  Much of the so-called 'mature' tv out there if derivative hackwork which mistakes T&A and blood for character development.   Don't get me started on what passes for 'mature' books. 

On the contrary, in the wake of the Harry Potter phenomenon, and the breakout of Disney channel and Nickelodeon, this is the golden age of children's media and literature. 

Turning D&D into one more gore and sex fest would be a disaster.
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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:10PM #4
Avric_Tholomyes
Date Joined: Mar 31, 2012
Posts: 334
I don't think this is necissary. A DM could easily run that type of thing if he wanted to, but it doesn't need to require the R&D team's attention.
I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.
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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:32PM #5
Baalbamoth
Date Joined: Jan 17, 2012
Posts: 479
@ Professor- I guess the shoddy hackwork is the reason these shows sweep the emmys every year and win almost every major award for television exellence, sorry your arguement is not holding water.


@avric- then why is there a "song of fire and ice" RPG? clearly somebody saw the sales potential in making RPG rules specifically to cover the adult themes in those books.

I think this is very much a subject that should require the R&D team's attention. If its what people many people want (regardless of if they admit it publically or not), and it will sell more books, why wouldent WotC want to put out another "book of vile darkness" complete with the hack n slash crit charts, fun with corpses necromancy guide, etc. I'd buy it, so would most gamers I think...  

how high were the sales of BoVD in comparison with the other 3.0 titles anyway? I seem to remember it was one of the highest selling books in the line, and people were greatly dismayed when they refused later printings as hasbro didnt like it... If I remember right...   
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:33PM #6
BhaelFire
Date Joined: Jul 2, 2012
Posts: 703
As a HUGE fan of low and dark fantasy like Game of Thrones and the works of R.E. Howard, I would LOVE to see a more mature line of D&D products.

But, I'm totally cool if it never happens, too — because I can keep making my own mature-themed campaigns (and I have for a long time).
D&D Next - Basic and Expert Editions Show

I firmly believe that there should be two editions of the game; the core rules released as a "Basic" set and a more complicated expanded rules edition released as an "Expert" set. These two editions would provide separate entry points to the game; one for new players or players that want a more classic D&D game and another entry point for experienced gamers that want more options and all the other things they have come to expect from previous editions.

Also, they must release several rules modules covering the main elements of the game (i.e., classes, races, combat, magic, monsters, etc.) upon launch to further expand the game for those that still need more complexity in a particular element of the game.



Here's a mockup of the Basic Set I created.



(CLICK HERE TO VIEW LARGER IMAGE)
  


Basic Set


This boxed set contains a simple, "bare bones" edition of the game; the core rules. It's for those that want a rules-light edition of the game that is extremely modifiable or for new players that get intimidated easily by too many rules and/or options. The Basic Set contains everything needed to play with all the "classic" D&D races (i.e., Human, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling) and classes (i.e., Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) all the way up to maximum level (i.e., 20th Level).

The Basic boxed set contains:


Quick Start Rules
A "choose your own way" adventure intended as an intro to RPGs and basic D&D terms.

Player's Handbook
(Softcover, 125 pages)
Features rules for playing the classic D&D races and classes all the way up to 20th level.

Dungeon Master's Guide

(Softcover, 125 pages)
Includes the basic rules for dungeon masters.

Monster Manual
(Softcover, 100 pages)
Includes all the classic iconic monsters from D&D. 

Introductory Adventure
(Keep on the Borderlands)
An introductory adventure for beginning players and DMs.

Also includes: 

Character Sheets
Reference Sheets
Set of Dice




Expert Set


A set of hardbound rules that contains the core rules plus expanded races and classes, more spells and a large selection of optional rules modules — that is, pretty much everything that experienced players have come to expect. Each expert edition manual may be purchased separately, or in a boxed set. The Expert set includes:


Expert PHB (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus 10 playable races, 10 character classes, expanded selection of spells and rules modules for players.)
Expert DMG (Hardcover, 250 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus expanded rules modules for DMs.)
Expert MM (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes an expanded list of monsters and creatures to challenge characters)




Expansions


These expansion rules modules can be used with both the Basic and Expert sets. Each expansion covers one specific aspect of the game, such as character creation, combat, spells, monsters, etc.) 


Hall of Heroes (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes a vast selection of playable character races and classes, new and old all in one book)
Combat and Tactics (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes dozens of new and old optional rules for combat all in one book)
Creature Compendium (Hardcover, 350 pages.$35 Includes hundreds of monsters, new and old all in one book)
The Grimoire (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes hundreds of new and old spells all in one book)












A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage Show

A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage and Hit Points


In my personal campaigns, I use the following system for damage and dying. It's a slight modification of the long-standing principles etsablished by the D&D game, only with a new definition of what 0 or less hit points means. I've been using it for years because it works really well. However, I've made some adjustments to take advantage of the D&D Next rules. I've decided to present the first part in a Q&A format for better clarity. So let's begin...


What are hit points?
The premise is very simple, but often misunderstood; hit points are an abstraction that represent the character's ability to avoid serious damage, not necessarily their ability to take serious damage. This is a very important distinction. They represent a combination of skillful maneuvering, toughness, stamina and luck. Some targets have more hit points because they are physically tougher and are harder to injure...others have more because they are experienced combatants and have learned how to turn near fatal blows into mere scratches by skillful maneuvering...and then others are just plain lucky. Once a character runs out of hit points they become vulnerable to serious life-threatening injuries.


So what exactly does it mean to "hit" with a successful attack roll, then?
It means that through your own skill and ability you may have wounded your target if the target lacks the hit points to avoid the full brunt of the attack. That's an important thing to keep in mind; a successful "hit" does not necessarily mean you physically damaged your target. It just means that your attack was well placed and forced the target to exert themselves in such a way as to leave them vulnerable to further attacks. For example, instead of severing the target's arm, the attack merely grazes them leaving a minor cut.


But the attack did 25 points of damage! Why did it only "graze" the target?
Because the target has more than 25 hit points. Your attack forced them to exert a lot of energy to avoid the attack, but because of their combat skill, toughness, stamina and luck, they managed to avoid being seriously injured. However, because of this attack, they may not have the reserves to avoid your next attack. Perhaps you knocked them off balance or the attack left them so fatigued they lack the stamina to evade another attack. It's the DM's call on how they want to narrate the exact reason the blow didn't kill or wound the target.


Yeah, but what about "touch" attacks that rely on physical contact?
Making physical contact with a target is a lot different than striking them, so these types of attacks are the exception. If a touch attack succeeds, the attacker manages to make contact with their target.


If hit points and weapon damage don't always represent actual damage to the target, then what does it represent?
Think of the damage from an attack as more like a "threat level" rather than actual physical damage that transfers directly to the target's body. That is, the more damage an attack does, the harder it is to avoid serious injury. For example, an attack that causes 14 points of damage is more likely to wound the target than 3 points of damage (depending on how many hit points the target has left). The higher the damage, the greater the chance is that the target will become seriously injured. So, an attack that does 34 points of damage could be thought of as a "threat level of 34." If the target doesn't have the hit points to negate that threat, they become seriously injured.


Ok, but shouldn't armor reduce the amount of damage delivered from an attack?
It does reduce damage; by making it harder for an attack to cause serious injury. A successful hit against an armored target suggests that the attack may have circumvented the target's armor by striking in a vulnerable area.


What about poison and other types of non-combat damage?
Hit point loss from non-physical forms of damage represents the character spitting the poison out just in time before it takes full strength or perhaps the poison just wasn't strong enough to affect them drastically, but still weakens them. Again, it's the DMs call on how to narrate the reasons why the character avoids serious harm from the damage.


If hit points don't don't represent actual damage then how does that make sense with spells like Cure Serious Wounds and other forms of healing like healer kits with bandages?
Hit points do represent some physical damage, just not serious physical damage. Healing magic and other forms of healing still affect these minor wounds just as well as more serious wounds. For example, bandaging up minor cuts and abrasions helps the character rejuvenate and relieve the pain and/or fatigue of hit point loss. The key thing to remember is that it's an abstraction that allows the DM freedom to interpret and narrate it as they see fit.

What if my attack reduces the target to 0 or less hit points?
If a player is reduced to 0 or less hit points they are wounded. If a monster or NPC is reduce to 0 or less hit points they are killed.


Why are monsters killed immediately and not players?
Because unless the monsters are crucial to the story, it makes combat resolution much faster. It is assumed that players immediately execute a coup de grace on wounded monsters as a finishing move.


What if a character is wounded by poison or other types of non-physical damage?
If a character becomes wounded from non-combat damage they still receive the effects of being wounded, regardless if they show any physical signs of injury (i.e., internal injuries are still considered injuries).


Ok. I get it...but what happens once a character is wounded?
See below.
 


Damage and Dying


Once a character is reduced to 0 or less hit points, they start taking real damage. In other words, their reserves have run out and they can no longer avoid taking serious damage.


  1. Characters are fully operational as long as they have 1 hit point or more. They may have minor cuts, bruises, and superficial wounds, but they are are not impaired significantly. 

  2. Once they reach 0 or less hit points, they become Wounded (see below).That is, they have sustained a wound that impairs their ability to perform actions.

  3. If they reach a negative amount of hit points equal or greater than their Constitution score, they are Incapacitated. This means they are in critical condition and could possibly die.

  4. Characters will die if their hit points reach a negative amount greater than their Constitution score, plus their current level.



Unharmed: 1 hp or more
Wounded: 0 hp or less
Incapacitated: -(Constitution) to -(Constitution+Level)
Dead: Less than -(Constitution +Level)


Wounded
When the character reaches 0 or less hit points they become wounded. Wounded characters receive disadvantage on all attacks and saving throws until they heal back up to 1 hit point or more. This allows for a transitory stage between healthy and dying, without having to mess around with impairment rules while the character still has hit points left.


Incapacitated
Characters begin dying when they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution score. At which point, they must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw on each of their following turns (the disadvantage from being wounded does not apply for these saving throws).

If successful, the character remains dying, but their condition does not worsen.


If the saving throw fails, another DC 10 Constitution saving throw must be made. If that one fails, the character succumbs to their wounds and dies. If successful, the character stabilizes and is no longer dying.

Finally, if a dying character receives first aid or healing at any point, they immediately stabilize.


Dead
Characters will die if they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution, plus their current level. Thus, if an 8th level character with a Constitution score of 12 is down to 4 hit points then takes 24 points of damage (reducing their hit points to -20) the attack kills them outright.

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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:45PM #7
Avric_Tholomyes
Date Joined: Mar 31, 2012
Posts: 334

Oct 5, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Baalbamoth wrote:

@avric- then why is there a "song of fire and ice" RPG? clearly somebody saw the sales potential in making RPG rules specifically to cover the adult themes in those books.

I think this is very much a subject that should require the R&D team's attention. If its what people many people want (regardless of if they admit it publically or not), and it will sell more books, why wouldent WotC want to put out another "book of vile darkness" complete with the hack n slash crit charts, fun with corpses necromancy guide, etc. I'd buy it, so would most gamers I think...  

how high were the sales of BoVD in comparison with the other 3.0 titles anyway? I seem to remember it was one of the highest selling books in the line, and people were greatly dismayed when they refused later printings as hasbro didnt like it... If I remember right...   


The Song of Fire and Ice RPG exists precisely for people who want that playstyle. If you sit down to play that RPG, you know what you're going into. D&D is not a Song of Fire and Ice.

As for selling more books, I'm dubious. It's a novelty, I'll admit, and it might get a boost from that, but I never bought it, since it seemed like a waste of money. As a DM, I have the ability to include that stuff in my game, if I want to, without buying that book. As a player, It doesn't do anything for my enjoyment of the game, so I'd be much more happy to save my money.

To me, it seems like the thing that takes away from the game more than it adds, because it tends to be used as "mature themes for the sake of mature themes." I have no problem with the stuff, like sex, drugs, gore, torture, and the like used when it contributes in a meaningful way to the story or to the atmosphere (see ASoFaI), but when it's used for it's own sake, it brings to mind the gaming equivalent of a 14 year old kid, who draws pentagrams and inverted crosses and circle-As everywhere, because it's "hardcore" and "extreme." And I think we've grown as a hobby from that state, or at least, I'd like to think we have.

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.
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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 7:08PM #8
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,733
D&D was never evil, but instead just an easy target until the next easy target (i think that might have been Nike shoes) came along.
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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 7:09PM #9
Sesdun
Date Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 371
@Baalbamoth

'Adult' subjects such as love, sex, rape, perversion, real moral dilemmas (as opposed to fantasy ones), slavery, suffering and deep psychological stuff have all been part of our D&D campaigns at points. It's up to each group to chose to play such a game.

Nothing is stopping anyone from playing a dark and gritty campaign with current rules.

While it would be interesting to see some materials in that vein I feel that it is quite remote from the 'standard setting'.

Books like 3.5E Vile Darkness just felt a bit silly in my opinon.. 

While putting rules on adult stuff (2ed carnal guide) makes for a very funny read, it is more comical than really 'adult' or dark or gritty. We did use some spells from the carnal guide just to give  some captured spellbooks a bit of flavour (Unseen Pervert and Power Word: Strip ftw) and once also the rules for damage to the child if the mother uses magic while pregnant although modded a bit.

Still, if I would really want to play an RPG going off the deep end.. then I would play Kult or something instead of D&D..

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9 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 7:28PM #10
Hocus-Smokus
Date Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 7,214
OD&D was for ages 12 and up.
AD&D 1E was for ages 10 and up. This was the edition that spawned the "angry parents" era.
AD&D 2E was for ages 10 and up, despite the removal of devils, demons, and all nudity.
4E was for ages 12 and up.

Looks like D&D has always been built with children in mind...even at the height of the satanism / occult / drug-induced idiot phase. It was seen as "evil" because idiots got high, killed each other, and mommies across the country found D&D a wonderful scapegoat under the leadership of paranoid conspiracy-theorist Patricia Pulling. In turn, churches condemned it, adding to the craze. I'll never forget that episode of 60 Minutes that had both Pulling and Gary Gygax on it.

She died of cancer in '97 (the same year WotC purchased TSR...hmm...), and shortly thereafter the devilish / suicidality buzz died off. By the time 3.5 came around, it was just a funny joke to the new players and a sore memory for those of us who went through it. It is a tradition as old as money...controversy creates cash. I have no doubt the media buzz about D&D stimulated sales during 1E. However, simply slapping boobs and devils all over the D&D books will do nothing positive for either WotC or Hasbro. That and, as most of us know, most things labeled "mature" are about as far from mature as something can be. It's more typically sophomoric attempts at sexuality and shock-value, none of which carry any value for the game.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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