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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 7:52AM
#51
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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And there will be. You pick the first thing on the list in each section, and the game will function.
So in other words, a default. Thank you for admitting it.
So, everyone in 4e picked Dragonborn when getting started because it was the first race on the list?
No, that's not the same thing as establishing a default. See my last post for an explanation of how quick play and defaults are not inextricably linked.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 7:54AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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There seems to be an issue here where "new design philosophy" has become "excuse for bad design." When I buy something new, I expect to have a quick start guide. I do not read the book until I've got my fingers in it and want to know more. I never, ever read an instruction manual the whole way through before I start in on a new thing. Ever. I don't think I'm that unusual either. When I was younger and I got my 2e PHB for christmas, I read it cover to cover. I discovered by doing so that it wasn't a complete waste of time but it wasn't something I found so worthwhile that I'd ever read a whole D&D book from cover to cover again. These are reference books; they're not really meant to be read. The dimensions of your average D&D book is all wrong for curling up on the couch, for a start. When the playtest packets came out, I did not read them all the way through before I started playing. There's hardly anything to read there but basically I skimmed through "how to play" and read the bits that talked about terms I wasn't familiar with. I didn't even read whole sections on them in every case, I just got enough to get the idea and I moved on. Same goes with races, classes, specialties, and backgrounds: once I determined their purpose I skipped to the bits that I wanted to play and ignored the rest. That's what a reference book does. It provides us with a tool that's easy to navigate and get information we want without bogging us down with information we don't need. What I will find useful in a 5e D&D reference book will not be the same as what a beginner will find useful. In fact, what I find useful will probably scare them off playing with the details. Maybe the word "default" is just offensive? If that's the case I suggest people get over it 'cause it's the word that best describes how to teach people how to play in a game full of optional modules with nothing set in stone. When I open an openoffice document, OO doesn't sit there and ask me what my page layout is going to be. It doesn't concern me with margins or font or any of that; it opens up a thing that I can go ahead and write into. Maybe I'll change the settings as I go, maybe I won't, but if it sat there and asked me for settings every time I loaded a document I'd get really annoyed.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 7:55AM
#53
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So, everyone in 4e picked Dragonborn when getting started because it was the first race on the list?
No, that's not the same thing as establishing a default. See my last post for an explanation of how quick play and defaults are not inextricably linked.
Don't be a  ! Your example doesn't even make sense. 4e had a default set of rules, and didn't tell you to pick the first thing on each list. You own example above said they could tell Next purchasers to pick the first thing on each list and have a playable game. That is a default!!!!
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 7:58AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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So, everyone in 4e picked Dragonborn when getting started because it was the first race on the list?
No, that's not the same thing as establishing a default. See my last post for an explanation of how quick play and defaults are not inextricably linked.
Don't be a ! Your example doesn't even make sense. 4e had a default set of rules, and didn't tell you to pick the first thing on each list. You own example above said they could tell Next purchasers to pick the first thing on each list and have a playable game. That is a default!!!!
So, because 4e did it one way, that's the only way it can be done?
Sorry, no.
I said that the players could pick the first thing on the list, not WotC. If you stop misrepresenting what I'm saying, it might make more sense.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:00AM
#55
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You are telling them that is a viable way. "Pick one of the following options:" tells them that no matter what they pick, it will be viable. If you want to be running a game in 5 minutes, you can do that. And yet there's no default.
Your comparison to a multiple choice test is a particularly good analogy, though. What I'm saying is that people shouldn't be graded on how they play. Whereas you're saying that there should be an "officially right" answer, that is the default.
What I'm saying is that the goal of the exercise is "Fill in at least one bubble on every line" not "pick the right answer and score highly on the test."
Carefully selecting options that synergize well together, is usually more optimal than randomly combining options. Since beginners arent yet in a position to know which options work better together (if any), they are unlikely to go with the first option of each list. Unless. The designers preselect certain options because they are simple and friendly and work well together, and tell the beginners it is ok to just go with the first option.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:00AM
#56
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So, because 4e did it one way, that's the only way it can be done?
Sorry, no.
I said that the players could pick the first thing on the list, not WotC. If you stop misrepresenting what I'm saying, it might make more sense.
So they will have to divine that choices need to be made, and that picking the first thing on each list is a viable option? No, the rules will tell them that, and once that is done you have a default.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:01AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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There seems to be an issue here where "new design philosophy" has become "excuse for bad design."
Whether design is old or new has very little to do with whether it's good or not.
It does, however, lead to faulty conclusions like the one you make, in that older designs of D&D were good, and therefore if this new one is different, then it's bad. I'd take issue with that.
Sure, you may have used the books as references before, and that may have worked. That doesn't mean that's the only way. You say "These are reference books; they're not really meant to be read" - why not? The 4e DMG and DMG2 are meant to be read, and the DMG2 in particular is regarded as the most effective and useful book about designing a campaign that has ever been published, and its concepts are usable in any system. Why can't that be the case? Why do we have to settle for dusty old reference books?
What you've done is basically stated that they can't be innovative, because if they do then it won't be the way things used to be.
Well, yeah. That's the point.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:01AM
#58
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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So, because 4e did it one way, that's the only way it can be done?
Sorry, no.
I said that the players could pick the first thing on the list, not WotC. If you stop misrepresenting what I'm saying, it might make more sense.
So they will have to divine that choices need to be made, and that picking the first thing on each list is a viable option? No, the rules will tell them that, and once that is done you have a default.
If you think "Pick one of the following options:" needs divine intervention for people to understand, then you have larger issues to deal with.
You don't have to tell them that picking the first one is viable. You tell them picking any of them is viable.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:05AM
#59
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2008
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If you want players to try something different maybe try to find out what they want and give them that first. Once they are familiar with you and they trust you as a quality DM you can lay your big idea on them. Show them you have the skills before you change things up.
Maybe the developers should focus on making a game that scales properly an operates at higher levels in a satisfactory manner rather than all this flim-flam about revolutionizing the RPG world. The most common gripes I hear are about game breakage in higher levels. Make that the priority. Then put the cherries and sprinkles on it.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:07AM
#60
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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If you want players to try something different maybe try to find out what they want and give them that first. Once they are familiar with you and they trust you as a quality DM you can lay your big idea on them. Show them you have the skills before you change things up.
Sounds great. But D&D players want different, mutually contradictory things. Designing a system with defaults that ignores those different needs will alienate and fracture the playerbase, rather than uniting it as is the intent.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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