Everyone playing D&D today managed to get that experience and battle scars with no default. I don't see the need to make it worse on the new players to come.
.....
Are you seriously claiming that no edition of D&D, from OD&D to 4e, has had a default?
Seriously?
No. That was a typo. I meant that all editions had a default and everone did just fine. Sorry :P
Everyone playing D&D today managed to get that experience and battle scars with no default. I don't see the need to make it worse on the new players to come.
.....
Are you seriously claiming that no edition of D&D, from OD&D to 4e, has had a default?
Seriously?
No. That was a typo. I meant that all editions had a default and everone did just fine. Sorry :P
You have to admit, it was somewhat confusing.
Thinking about defaults in general, I'm trying to think of a game that doesn't have one. I mean, GURPS maybe? I don't really know, as I've never played it. But I have played, run, and/or own the following, and they all have a default:
- D&D (BECMI, 1st, 2nd, 3.0, 3.5, 4E) - Old (or "Classic") World of Darkness (Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Mage: the Ascension, Wraith: the Oblivion, Changeling: the Dreaming, Hunter: the Reckoning, Demon: the Fallen, Dark Ages: Fae, Werewolf: the Wyld West, Victorian Age Vampire, Kindred of the East, Mummy: the Resurrection) - Old-school Mind's Eye Theatre (the LARP rules for the above WoD games) - New World of Darkness (Vampire: the Requiem, Werewolf: the Forsaken, Mage: the Awakening, Promethean: the Created, Changeling: the Lost, Geist: the Sin-Eaters, plus the "blue line," or core WoD books) - New Mind's Eye Theatre (the LARP rules for core, Requiem, and Awakening) - Pathfinder - Marvel Super Heroes (TSR/Universal Table version) - BattleTech/MechWarrior - Rifts - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness - Legend of the Five Rings - Star Wars (WEG/d6 version) - Star Wars D20 - Curse the Darkness - Our Last Best Hope - The Play's The Thing - Dark Aeons: the Atlantean Chronicles
I have a feeling I'm forgetting something, but I should hope that's enough of a list. All of those games have had a default, and many have been wildly successful in various definitions of the word "successful." Some are new, or made by small independent companies (or both). Regardless, at least two of the companies represented there (TSR/WotC, and White Wolf/CCP/Onyx Path Publishing) are pretty much the biggest out there (and Paizo, as well, with the recent success of Pathfinder).
So, from that, having a default seems to be fairly workable and desireable, at least from an economic standpoint, I should think. Honest question - do folks have examples of games that don't have a default at all? As I said, I'm supposing GURPS falls under that umbrella, but I don't know firsthand as I've never played it.
For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon
@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?
Everyone playing D&D today managed to get that experience and battle scars with no default. I don't see the need to make it worse on the new players to come.
.....
Are you seriously claiming that no edition of D&D, from OD&D to 4e, has had a default?
Seriously?
No. That was a typo. I meant that all editions had a default and everone did just fine. Sorry :P
You have to admit, it was somewhat confusing.
Yeah, which is why I appoligized to him. You'd think, though, given how hard I've been arguing with Mand about default and what default means, that he would have known it was a typo. He's a smart guy.
Thinking about defaults in general, I'm trying to think of a game that doesn't have one. I mean, GURPS maybe? I don't really know, as I've never played it. But I have played, run, and/or own the following, and they all have a default:
- D&D (BECMI, 1st, 2nd, 3.0, 3.5, 4E) - Old (or "Classic") World of Darkness (Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Mage: the Ascension, Wraith: the Oblivion, Changeling: the Dreaming, Hunter: the Reckoning, Demon: the Fallen, Dark Ages: Fae, Werewolf: the Wyld West, Victorian Age Vampire, Kindred of the East, Mummy: the Resurrection) - Old-school Mind's Eye Theatre (the LARP rules for the above WoD games) - New World of Darkness (Vampire: the Requiem, Werewolf: the Forsaken, Mage: the Awakening, Promethean: the Created, Changeling: the Lost, Geist: the Sin-Eaters, plus the "blue line," or core WoD books) - New Mind's Eye Theatre (the LARP rules for core, Requiem, and Awakening) - Pathfinder - Marvel Super Heroes (TSR/Universal Table version) - BattleTech/MechWarrior - Rifts - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness - Legend of the Five Rings - Star Wars (WEG/d6 version) - Star Wars D20 - Curse the Darkness - Our Last Best Hope - The Play's The Thing - Dark Aeons: the Atlantean Chronicles
I have a feeling I'm forgetting something, but I should hope that's enough of a list. All of those games have had a default, and many have been wildly successful in various definitions of the word "successful." Some are new, or made by small independent companies (or both). Regardless, at least two of the companies represented there (TSR/WotC, and White Wolf/CCP/Onyx Path Publishing) are pretty much the biggest out there (and Paizo, as well, with the recent success of Pathfinder).
So, from that, having a default seems to be fairly workable and desireable, at least from an economic standpoint, I should think. Honest question - do folks have examples of games that don't have a default at all? As I said, I'm supposing GURPS falls under that umbrella, but I don't know firsthand as I've never played it.
That's impressive list. I have played a lot of those, but not nearly all of them. However, I HAVE played GURPS and GURPS does indeed have default rules. It is only generic with regard to setting. It goes into specific detail with default rules on character creation, how to run the game, etc. I can't think of any game that doesn't have default rules.
Honestly, it depends on what default means, and that ultimately falls on the players and DM. Talk to different groups and you will recieve different answers. GURPS does have a basic rule set, but all that does it give you a taste of what is available (like a bare shell of the magic system). That would be similar to a D&D starter set in my opinion.
Even with GURPS magic, it has mulitple systems within the same shell, whether you are talking about magic colleges, advantages/disadvanages, or knacks. Each is a valid approach or different spin on the same topic. So all of it is default, or acceptable, based on what the DM and players want.
Yeah, which is why I appoligized to him. You'd think, though, given how hard I've been arguing with Mand about default and what default means, that he would have known it was a typo. He's a smart guy.
Well, I realized it - I was just giving you a hard time. :-)
That's impressive list. I have played a lot of those, but not nearly all of them. However, I HAVE played GURPS and GURPS does indeed have default rules. It is only generic with regard to setting. It goes into specific detail with default rules on character creation, how to run the game, etc. I can't think of any game that doesn't have default rules.
Well, I've not yet played the last four on the list, although I do own them. I've only played Rifts and L5R once each, too, and forgot to list Exalted on there, which I own but have not gotten to play. And Wraith is my favorite oWoD game I've not gotten to play (although my actual favorites are Apocalypse and Demon). Other than that, though, I've played or run all of those games quite a bit. I guess I somewhat get around, game-wise. *shrugs*
But thanks for pointing that out about GURPS. I've wanted to try that, and FATE, but haven't had the time for some reason. ;-)
For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon
@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?
If there isn't a default, a method by which the designers figure the majority of players will play, then writing books will be utterly unworkable. You can't possibly write something to account for the 200+ possible combinations of modules people will use.
That being said, if there is a default-- then everything written is going to likely revolve around the default method of play leaving the other options unsupported until they are ultimately going to be dropped.
I sense already that the myriad of choices with no correct way to play the game will end up being this edition's downfall. Unless characters and monsters can easily be moved from one to another without serious balance issues.
I like the idea of having perhaps two battle systems-- a very simple one that one can use without maps without anyone having too much trouble understanding what is going on... such that specific foot range, specific character positioning and so forth aren't necessary.
And then a deeper system for use where you will basically be required to use mapping tools and miniatures and concerned about what 5' grid square each player and enemy are occupying and what direction each is facing.
But clearly certain monsters and PCs will be considerably better in one system or the other.
And then a deeper system for use where you will basically be required to use mapping tools and miniatures and concerned about what 5' grid square each player and enemy are occupying and what direction each is facing.
I want that cool, holographic Star Wars chess-type game for certain battles.
And then a deeper system for use where you will basically be required to use mapping tools and miniatures and concerned about what 5' grid square each player and enemy are occupying and what direction each is facing.
I want that cool, holographic Star Wars chess-type game for certain battles.
And then a deeper system for use where you will basically be required to use mapping tools and miniatures and concerned about what 5' grid square each player and enemy are occupying and what direction each is facing.
I want that cool, holographic Star Wars chess-type game for certain battles.
