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8 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 5:50PM
#31
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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If we remove this Con Mod bonus to HP each level, we still need a way for Con to contribute to HP as you level.
No, we don't.
If level-one hitpoints are CON score + class die, and each additional level is just class die, the spread between a d10 fighter and a d4 wizard of the sam CON will approach, but never actually reach, a 2:1 ratio by the averages. 2:1 ratio may occur if the d4 rolls abysmally, or if the con scores are way different, but it's not going to be the runaway hp gap we've seen in the other editions.
A level-20 wizard with a 3 Con would have 63 HP, while a level-20 fighter with 18 con would have 138 HP (which is barely more than double the wizard's total).
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8 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 7:17PM
#32
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I'm confused about why people are talking about 2:1 hp ratios like they're some kind of problem instead of... not a problem. A character with a large hp rolling die size and a higher con score might be able to take twice as many hits as a character with a small die and a lower con. That is okay. That is not a problem. It's good to see enthusiasm for actually being careful with math instead of just throwing numbers at the wall, but here it's applied to a non-issue.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 1:56PM
#33
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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I'm confused about why people are talking about 2:1 hp ratios like they're some kind of problem instead of... not a problem.
It's not a problem.
HD size and conmods creating a 5:1 hp ratio is a problem.
A wizard with 8 con averages 1.75 hp/lv. Meanwhile, a fighter with 18 con averages 9.5 hp/lv.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 5:15PM
#34
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I'm confused about why people are talking about 2:1 hp ratios like they're some kind of problem instead of... not a problem.
It's not a problem.
HD size and conmods creating a 5:1 hp ratio is a problem.
A wizard with 8 con averages 1.75 hp/lv. Meanwhile, a fighter with 18 con averages 9.5 hp/lv.
Even if either of those were things people ever did, is that really a problem? I mean, it might be; I have literally never seen a wizard with 8 Con, and even just 10 con drops the ratio down to less than 4:1, and the most extreme characters I've ever seen drops the ratio down to 3.4:1. Yes, a player who creates a character that is as easy as possible to kill is, in fact, creating a character that is relatively easy to kill compared to a character that is created to be as hard as possible to kill. I'm very familiar with the massive, massive balance discrepancies that have existed in various editions of the game. I'm also very aware of what issues are real issues and what issues might look like issues on paper but aren't. Very low level character survivabilty is a real issue - while it's a playstyle that might appeal to some people, it has very real consequences. A character having twice as many (or even three times as many) HP as another is not an issue that has real consequences. There is some HP discrepancy that is eventually problematic, where it's hard to pick values for damage that meaninfully threaten a high HP character but don't one-shot a low-HP character, but I think those discrepancies are higher than the 3.5 rules created. (Although it's hard to judge perfectly, because I have literally never seen anybody play a d4 HD character AND dump constitution, and if people do do that, then in does in fact create characters with extremely low HP totals, which artifically infates the ratio. Heck, a 3.5 Elf who dumps Con ends up with a 6, which as a d4 HD character gives them 1.25 HP/level. Compared to a 20-Con Barbarian, that's over a 9:1 HP ratio! But that doesn't really matter, because those extremes don't really reflect what real characters actual humans are playing actually look like.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 5:20PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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Most players I've encountered shoot for a 12 or 14 con with the odd guy going all out with a dwarf or something. The dwarf HP monster is rare though. heh anyone remember the old 2e class generation rules? I remember one of my brothers took that and poured all his points into "as much hp and thaco as possible" with no armour proficiency or non weapon proficiencies. It was hilarious.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 5:28PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2012
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A wizard with an 8 con that makes it through a real 1st level with 3 hit points is a wizard who has earned the right to have 4 hit points. Rinse repeat. It doesn't really make it a valid comparison however.
A wizard with 18 con and a fighter with 18 con only has less than a 2:1 differential. This is a more fair comparison worth talking about. Perhaps 2:1 with the same stats makes sense. That debate is still out for me.
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 5:43PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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it's easy to cite extremes and say "hey that's broken!" but they rarely actually reflect anything real. Someone who drops their Con to 8 deserves to get one shotted by a stray arrow. They're begging for it. The guy we should look after is the guy who's made a reasonable to considerable investment in Con and make sure they're getting enough bang for their buck.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 1:26AM
#38
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What's wrong with a 4:1 HP ratio between fighter and wizard? Fighters are generally expected to get in the fray and protect the squishies. Wizards have the cosmos at their fingertips, so hit points should really be one of the least of their worries. Besides, constitution is pretty much worthless even when giving its bonus to maximum HP. I'll give up my con modifier to HP if I can get some sizeable amount of magic resistance in its place.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 5:56AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2010
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What's wrong with a 4:1 HP ratio between fighter and wizard? Fighters are generally expected to get in the fray and protect the squishies. Wizards have the cosmos at their fingertips, so hit points should really be one of the least of their worries. Besides, constitution is pretty much worthless even when giving its bonus to maximum HP. I'll give up my con modifier to HP if I can get some sizeable amount of magic resistance in its place.
The problem with HP ratios is that people are looking at them in a vacuum. Sure a Fighter should be able to take 4 times the beating as a Wizard but this isn't the full picture. Combining HP with AC shows a more realistic picture. If a fighter has a 15% to be hit and 4 times the HP of a Wizard that has a 45% chance to be hit then the Fighter can take 12 times the beating the Wizard can. Not the Fighters ability to reduce damage and larger Hit Die heals.
Sure maybe a Fighter should be 5 or 6 times as durable as a wizard, but 15 to 20 times more durable is a bit too much for me.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 6:28AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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The fact that the armour is totally weird in the packet and the wizard's only recourse at lvl 1 is a poxy +2 cover bonus from a spell doesn't help.
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