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Oct 3, 2012 -- 12:11PM, Oma012 wrote:

if you going to multiclass into a magic/battle character use the BS not is the best option because her Spell Know have one less than normal, you can cast lv 2 spells for yourself until lv 5, is better use a basic spell casting class then multiclass in a battle class and at lv 6 or 7 take a prestige class like the eldritsh knight or the Abjurant champion (lv 10) or maybe the disciple of the green star.

Except for one key difference, Oma: with a Battle Sorceror, YOU DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS.

Build: F1/BS6/EK10/BS3   

[BAB 17, CL 18]

Oct 3, 2012 -- 1:59PM, draco1119 wrote:

Oct 3, 2012 -- 12:11PM, Oma012 wrote:

if you going to multiclass into a magic/battle character use the BS not is the best option because her Spell Know have one less than normal, you can cast lv 2 spells for yourself until lv 5, is better use a basic spell casting class then multiclass in a battle class and at lv 6 or 7 take a prestige class like the eldritsh knight or the Abjurant champion (lv 10) or maybe the disciple of the green star.

Except for one key difference, Oma: with a Battle Sorceror, YOU DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS.

In all fairness draco119 you can make up lost caster levels but you can NOT make up lost spellcastING levels.

Most of the time a Sorcerer 'gish' has a hard time making it to 18th-level casting at 20th-level and to compare that with someone with 20 levels of BS spellcasting the BS actually has as many 8th-level spell slots, TWO more 9th-level spell slots, and admittedly is missing a slot of 7th-level spells and lower.  When it comes to spells known the Sorcerer does know one more spell of levels up to 7th but would know the same number of 8th-level spells but one fewer 9th-level spells. 

simple example

Humand Fighter 3/Wu jen 3/ELDRITCH KNIGHT 3 (array 15/14/14/16/12/10)
Spoiler: Show

Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 10
BA +7 Ini +2 HP 65

feats
H- Heroic Destiny
Lv1- Improved Toughness
Lv3- Practiced Spell Caster (Wu jen)
Lv6- Fearless Destiny
Lv9- Somatic Weponry
F1- Exotic weapon (goliath greathammer) 
F2- Weapon Focus (goliath greathammer)
Wj1- Extend Spell
EK1- Combat Expertise

Abilities
Watchful spirit
Spell secret 

Spells form 0 to 3 CL 9: 4/4/3/2 DC 13+ Spell Lv

Saves: F  9=7+2, R  5=3+2, W 6=5+1
AC 12 = 10+2

Attack:  goliath greathammer +11/+6 1d12+4

Skills
Jump +9
Climb +9
Swim +9
Use Magic Divice +3
Speack Lenguage 3
Tumble +5
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15

Now the same Example with a BS
Human Battle Sorserer 9 (array 15/14/14/10/12/16)
Spoiler: Show

Str 16,Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 17

BA+6, Ini +2, HP 74

Feats
H- Spell Casting Prodigy (BS)
lv1- Still Spell
lv3- Split Spell
lv6- Improved Toughness
lv9- Rapid Metamagic

Abilities
Summon Familiar (toad)

Spells form 0 to 4 CL 9: 5/6/6/6/4 DC 14+ Spell Lv

Spells Know form 0 to 4 CL 9: 7/4/3/2/1

Saves: F  5=3+2, R  5=3+2, W 7=6+1

AC 16 = 10+2+4 (Armor)

Attack:  Long Sword +9/+4 1d8+3

Skills
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15

Oma, why are you using such a wierd "example" to make your point?  Wu Jen isn't a commonly seen class so maybe you should just try to redo the sample using Wizard instead.  If you're trying to prove a point it is usually best to make two characters who utilize many of the same things instead of trying to compare apple to oranges.

Also, how is that first sample character getting into Eldritch Knight?  Are you forgetting the EK requires the ability to cast 3rd-level spells before you can enter it?  To 99% of the population that means you need at least FIVE casting levels as Wizard to meet.  To most people the "basics" for a 9th-level EK are going to be Ftr1/Wiz5/EK3 which has a +6 BAB and casts as a 7th-level wizard with 4,3,2,1 spells per day from levels 1-4; Practices spellcaster would give those spells a little more punch but it doesn't actually give any more spells.

I will also comment about how poorly you built that BattleSorcer.  WHY are you taking things like Still Spell (you already avoid ASF when in light armor) and Rapid Metamagic.  Although it may be painful he does want to take Combat Casting so he can enter Abjurant Champion at 8th-level for a BS7/AbC2 build.  That build happens to have a +7 BAB and casts as a 9th-level Battle Sorcerer giving it 5,5,5,3 slots of spell levels 1-4 with knows spells of 4,3,2,1.

In this basic comparison the EK actually should have slight edge when it comes to the variety of spells it can bring (it's bonus spells could be something else) although the BS could "know" every spell a wizard would prepare in the normal slots but use them all more times while picking and choosing.  The BS may be a feat or two behind but can cast in armor, has a +7 BAB vs. the +6, and is getting the wonderfulness that is AbC.  Admittedly, EK is not a great class but you can see that a BS build holds up just fine when compared to many other "gish" builds.
 

Oct 3, 2012 -- 11:40AM, NeueRegal wrote:

3.5

StevenO beat me to the punch with Battle Sorcerer.  I've used that as the "core" class for 3 of my bbeg's so far (the group prefers PC's to be pure core).  But yeah, using the Battle Sorcerer, I've made a BS/Arcane Archer, a BS/Eldritch Knight, and currently a BS/Dragon Disciple, each of which has torn the party to shreds (along with appropriate minions/adventures, of course) time and time again, and gotten away to fight another day multiple times, so that when the party finally does slay the bbeg, they REALLY feel like they won a MAJOR triumph.

Neue 

In all fairness BS/EK is a poor idea for the most part.  At 20th-level a BS12/EK8 does get +17 BAB and a feat but spellcasting at 19th-level while a BS20 only gets +15 BAB and misses that feat in exchange for knowing one more 9th-level spell and having two more 9th-level slots available.  Although somemore optimization could/should be done a BS15/AbC5 has a +16 BAB (that's all what it takes for four attacks) but full spellcasting and all the benefits of AbC although AbC does have a feat requirement.

I would say that BattleSorcerer may be the best fit for Arcane Archer.  You can enter AA from BS8 which gives you up to 4th-level spells to use when you get Imbue Arrow which some people consider to be the entire reason you take AA.  While I'd probably fit in some Abjurant Champion or other class that increases BAB and spellcasting at 18th-level a BS8/AA10 has a +16 BAB although it still only casts as a 8th-level BS.

When it comes to the Dragon Disciple I believe there are two basic ways a person want to go to meet the PrC's spellcasting requirement.  One is Duskblade (to various degrees) which can give you lots of low level slots to work with.  The other is behind BS4 which will get you into the 2nd-level spell slots if you want DD to provide a bit more boost to casting.  There are other crazier ways to utilize DD with spellcasting although some of they carry into epic levels.

Oct 3, 2012 -- 4:41PM, StevenO wrote:

First let me number this to simplify my responses

Oct 3, 2012 -- 4:03PM, Oma012 wrote:

1. yes i was making lv 20 characters but i was remember that he need a lv 9 and i was miss the entry requeriments, i was remember that need cast lv 3 for it the example was casting lv 3 but i repair the example before you mention.

2. The BS know to low spells to waste it in Abjuration Spells.

3. The spells come with bonus spells.

4. Wu jen have a lot of spells for melee characters.

5. Still spell is very necesary because grapple is devastating in a caster.

6. And many armors have non ASF and A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

1.  Then do your homework before you start posting.  I'll also say there is no way to know when you "fixed" your post to avoid the major error.  This is why you should do statblocks long hand.

2.  Abjuration spells a waste?  When you just need one to get you into AbC (Shield works VERY nicely here) they are far from a waste and when you can cast them as swift actions while enjoying free Extends they get better.  Let's not forget that Abjuration spells can stop enemy spellcasters from messing you and your party up too much.  I wouldn't devote a lot of BS slots to Abjuration spells but I'd certainly use a few of them.

3.  And bonus spell slots will apply in both examples although you may probably don't have the BS stats assigned as well as they should be.  A prepared caster's extra slots can let it prepare more spells to give it more selection then the BS would get.  However, the BS can select any of its spells to use in its slots so while it may not have as much selection it can use an especially effective selection multiple times while the prepared caster is stuck using it one and possibly being force to sit on "useless" spells.

4.  Most irrelevant to the discussion.  Spell lists may help some types more then others but using a little used base class for an example is poor manners.  If your using Wu Jen because it has better "melee" spells maybe using Cleric would be a better option.

5.  Yet you didn't give it to your Wu-Jen?  I'll point out that some of the best "escape" spells already avoid somatic components.  If you're building a BS to be more "fighter" then spellcaster you probably shouldn't be loading up on MM feats anyway.

6.  I'm not sure where this one is coming from/I don't know what this comment is a response too.  Are you just agreeing that a BS has less need for Still Spell because they can avoid ASF in light armor?

Now Oma, when you say you want to present "the same example using something different" you need to keep the two so that we can see the relationship between the examples. 

1- i am working and i rapair it, at the time i remember the requeriments before you say it.

2- yes but at high level to accomplish other multiclass first.

3- the bonus spell are in both case.

4- gigant size and body out of body are the best for a battle caster.

5- because the wu jen have Spell secret that is the same for one spell then she can still cast a spell while a grapple, remember many of the spell have somatic components and many opponents have a lot of BA and STR like a dragon and with rapid spell you can use still spell as a normal wizard but with the advantage to use it when you like and in the spell you like.

6-Nop, i was saying that ASF are off topic I do not know why you named it in bolth case dont exist.