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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:25PM
#191
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Laws can bring order and chaos by themselves.
Not Order.
I am not sure exactly how Laws can bring chaos except, perhaps, as a consequence of not following the laws?
Maybe if you had a law that stated: Do what thou will.
Even Aleister Crowleys 'Do what thou wilt shall be whole of the law' is not a chaosbringer (except through misinterpretations).
Here 'wilt' basically meant 'according to your true conscience and your place in the divine plan' (Making it into a sort of wierdly hardcore Lawful/Neutral Good thing)
An it harm none, do what thou wilt... its about putting an appropriate boundary around freedom while demarking and supporting the freedom.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 8:35PM
#192
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Laws can bring order and chaos by themselves.
Not Order.
I am not sure exactly how Laws can bring chaos except, perhaps, as a consequence of not following the laws?
Maybe if you had a law that stated: Do what thou will.
Even Aleister Crowleys 'Do what thou wilt shall be whole of the law' is not a chaosbringer (except through misinterpretations).
Here 'wilt' basically meant 'according to your true conscience and your place in the divine plan' (Making it into a sort of wierdly hardcore Lawful/Neutral Good thing)
An it harm none, do what thou wilt... its about putting an appropriate boundary around freedom while demarking and supporting the freedom.
'An it harm none, do what thou wilt' is the Wiccan rede, not Crowley's original. =P
The wiccan rede and associated morality is clearly CG in my opinion, especially as it ditches the strong emphasis on the 'true will'.
In Crowleys version he believed that there was a predetermined pattern of true wills that would mesh together into perfect harmony if only everyone would act according to it, turning the world into an ordered symphony allowing the room for everyone to grow to their maximum potential.. that sounds kind of LG to me.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 1:06AM
#193
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You know that you are blaming a whole people for the actions of a few, right?
Which makes me Chaotic Good by the Spelljammer standards!
My alignment does not change just because you are having a crisis of conscience.
Your alignment also doesn't require a conscience.
And besides, who really want the Scro to win? 
You put the horse before the cart. The Scro came about as a reaction to Elven genocide.
Assuming that in absence the Elves the Scro would roll over everyone is presumption on a grand scale.
It's like saying we should all accept the government's persecution of an ethnicity because it protects us from terorists. And that the government doing so is Chaotic Good.
To me, such an attitude is not only Evil, but foolish.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 2:47AM
#194
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2006
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I don´t like talking about Good-Evil axis and moral relativism but...
..the chaotic-lawful axis is totally different, because I admit players can have got different interpretation or opinion.
For me Caothic aligment shouldn´t be somebody who breaks rules but somebody who feels nearer Nature that civilitation or primordial cosmic forces (like faywild or far realm) that gods, or Feelings and Pasions are more important that codes of honor. For me caothic is when a character is only honorable for people of same allegiance (like guild, tribe or fatherland).
* And please, I hate that stupy manicheism, the universe doesn´t need a good-evil balance, Ilúvatar, the god who created Middle Earth never needed a evil twin brother. Evilness is the origin of disharmony. Evilness is Injustice and the right cosmic balance should´t be injust by nature.
Please, I don´t like when the idea a too good world would be like the last episode from sithc season of Charmed: "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World, Part 2" where a too good? alternate world the little infraction is a capital offense that is punished too severely... (can be good a world where there isn´t balance justice-mercy, where human dignity aren´t respected?).
* I rembember a chapter or episode of TV cartoon Gargoyles, the name of episodie "Walkabout" the main character, Goliath, said something like "order isn´t frozen, it´s dinamic". I think the true Order is harmonious because can be flexible to adapt itself to changes, challengings and new situation. Chaos is a useless bureaucrazy, for example.
* I like the idea of allegiance from d20 Modern like extra module.
"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)
Book 13 Anaclet 23
Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 3:29AM
#195
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2004
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Alignments as objective forces induces another problem : it's totally unknown to us, devs included.
We don't have the start of an idea how worlds with philosopical concepts beeing objective forces would evolve.
There's no way civilizations with access to means to detect the level of constructivity of each individual would evolve in something like the different D&D settings we know.
Even their stone age wouldn't be something similar.
Worlds built on alignments as objective forces should be totally alien to us, almost uncomprehensible.
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion
"Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe
"In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer
"Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition.
"you shouldn't even bother trying to become like me." - Gary Gygax (Elfcrusher confirmed)
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 5:17AM
#196
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2008
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Monsieur Moustache, You're contradicting yourself; Saying no one knows what those worlds would be like and then claiming they couldn't be this way.
Most people on earth think they know how to detect evil and are convinced their side is good. Most of those people think there are unseen forces at work that subtly shape and influence our world. The world killing elves are just to illustrate the insane lengths people can go to in the name of goodness. When you start out with a simplified world based off of game mechanics and you tell writers to go and create they are going to want the test the limits.
This game was created, it didn't evolve. I don't feel the need to explain the existence of every rediculus creatures I find there let alone every detail of the universe it exists in. It is the way it is because it is useful and it entertains.
If it ceases to entertain you you can make your own world. A pocket universe where the aligned planes have no influence.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 5:41AM
#197
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2006
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Aligments aren´t the cosmic Force from Star Wars but the ideology by factions of Hell-Heaven conflict. Your aligment is the answer to the question: can I use my freedom to do injust actions?
All peoples from world, jungle tribe or post industrial revolutions had got always some rules, code of behavior or taboos. The true anarchy would be written laws aren´t so necesary because people obey them by free will without menace of punishment, only because they agree they are right.
I say the concept of caothic aligment should be changed or clearer. Caothic aligment can´t be anarchy but it should be like minarchism (or minimal statim).
Caothic character can hate frozen order but like dynamic order. The right order helps change, for example a hospital management to stop a epidemic, building a skycrapper or coordinating a firefighter team for a emergency. Order is creating X-wings without breakdowns to go and destroy the Death Star.
In my settins the chaotic demons can create armies so disciplined like lawful devils, and caothic good elves can build "vertical forests" (towers with vegetation on its walls) and use living-contruct machines with motors that are almost living muscles, almost necromancy.
"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)
Book 13 Anaclet 23
Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 5:46AM
#198
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2008
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Luis Carlos,
Then you should love the Alignment System because in D&D good and evil are identifiable and concrete.
Results may vary at your table. No exchanges or refunds. Offer of fun and good times is void where prohibited.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 5:56AM
#199
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2004
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Monsieur Moustache, You're contradicting yourself; Saying no one knows what those worlds would be like and then claiming they couldn't be this way.
Most people on earth think they know how to detect evil and are convinced their side is good. Most of those people think there are unseen forces at work that subtly shape and influence our world. The world killing elves are just to illustrate the insane lengths people can go to in the name of goodness. When you start out with a simplified world based off of game mechanics and you tell writers to go and create they are going to want the test the limits.
This game was created, it didn't evolve. I don't feel the need to explain the existence of every rediculus creatures I find there let alone every detail of the universe it exists in. It is the way it is because it is useful and it entertains.
If it ceases to entertain you you can make your own world. A pocket universe where the aligned planes have no influence.
Yes, there's a paradox, another.
Please, tell me how a world with access to magic from early ages, as there were intelligent races before humans (our system of reference), with the option to categorize people without any risk of error (alignments are objective forces), can evolve into these familiar feudal system we see in D&D ?
Edit : In fact, I'm wrong. A college of specialists of each domain of civilization advancement could determine what could resemble this world with a lot of work. But I still think it would be totally alien to our conceptions.
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion
"Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe
"In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer
"Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition.
"you shouldn't even bother trying to become like me." - Gary Gygax (Elfcrusher confirmed)
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 7:01AM
#200
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2008
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All creatures were made by gods who shortly after the creation withdrew from the world to watch the action on their awesome new big screen HDTV. Cast: Detect Good == True. The various peoples of the world had to organize to survive and the simplest way was to follow the strongest, smartest leader whose ancestors mythologized them into a divinely chosen progenitor. The various races discovered subtle magics at different times. The slowest to discover them were the humans who were always a very practical race not given to naval gazing. While other races were busy meditating on deep mysteries, humans got busy killing. Humans discover the existence of magic in other races and the magical arms race begins.
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