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8 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 11:07AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2009
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Hi everyone,
My DM is telling us that you cannot charge into a flanking position. Meaning that when you charge into a position that would normally grant a flank, the charge attack itself gains no benefits from the flank. So no combat advantage and any other stuff that might come with that. His reasoning is that the charge happens too fast.
I think he would change his mind if we can show him an actual rule that states charging into a flank is possible. However, I don't think such a rule exists since the rules don't go around spelling out all of the things you can do. If you know where to find it, let me know.
So far he hasn't bought our reasoning that since there is no rule under the charge definition that says "Charges don't benefit from flanking," then there is no reason to believe they can't.
Also, I know as the DM he can simply houserule this and that would be fine. However, we want him to realize that this is actually a houserule and not the way the game was designed. This only matters because one of our players took surprising charge and this throws a damper on that selection.
Thanks in advance!
Humafan
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8 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 11:30AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2004
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There is no specific rule that says you can charge into flank, rather there is a rule on how to get flank and exceptions to that rule. Charging is no such exception. Your DM's idea that a charge is "too fast" to grant flank is simply something he's made up himself. The rules give no support for his reasoning.
Ask him if you will get flank from running into position, or using a fast mount to get there. How fast is too fast? Will you get the flank if you charge when slowed?
I guess your DM could reason that it's not the movement per se that is too fast, but that using only one action for both moving and attacking means you don't have time to take advantage of your position before you have to attack. If so, he should void flank also for all those powers that combine movement with attacks (neither skirmisher nor strikers will like that). It still makes no sense, though. You grant combat advantage to opponents who flanks you, not because they manage to take advantage of the terrain or something such, but because you have to divert your attention in different directions, which hampers your ability to defend yourself. The idea that you can defend yourself BETTER in such a position when your opponents make very fast attacks seems quite odd...
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8 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 11:56AM
#3
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Ask him if he has any other houserules you should be aware of that effect character decisions and tactics. That would be my solution.
"It doesn't make sense to me" isn't a valid argument. The rules say it works this way is a valid argument. If he can't accept his argument is irrational and yours isn't, you might have larger problems.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 1:04PM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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The method by which you get into flanking position has no bearring on the benefit it grant, be it by walking, running, charging, teleporting or even falling.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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8 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 1:36PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2003
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The "charge happens to fast" argument doesn't make any sense either. The reason you get a bonus for flanking is because of your ally on the opposite side of the opponent who is drawing their attention away from you. If anything, charging into flank should give you a bigger bonus, not 0 bonus. (I 'm not saying it really should give a bigger bonus, but that would be a more logical house rule)More specifically, as has been said above, the 4e rules are exception based. The Flanking rules define when you get Combat Advantage from flanking. The Charging rules define how charging works. Because the Flanking rules do not say that you do not get the bonus immediately after charging, and because the Charge rules do not say that you do not get the flanking bonus after charging, then you get the bonus. The flanking rules are very clear on the restrictions of when you can't flank:
- Can't see the target
- No Line of Effect to target
- You are subject to an effect that prevents flanking, such as Dominate or Daze.
The only other reason you won't get an additional +2 to hit would be if the target had an ability negating combat advantge from flanking (ex: the All Seeing Vision of a Beholder) or the combat advantage bonus from flanking (ex: Uncanny Dodge feat).
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 7:44AM
#6
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I think he would change his mind if we can show him an actual rule that states charging into a flank is possible.
Well, show him the rules for flanking and how they don't say "but not on a charge", and show him the rules for charging and how they don't say "and you can't flank", and also add 10 to all your attack rolls and declare quaruple damage on critical hits and "crit on 8+" and ignore all incoming damage because he can't show you where the rules say you DON'T do that when your character is being played by Humafan.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 7:48AM
#7
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Add me to the chorus of 'make him show you a rule that says it's NOT possible'.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 10:08AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2009
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Thanks for the input everyone. I 100% agree that there doesn't need to be a quote to support this. I also 100% agree that it logically makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone who is occupied by another threat when you are charging. Also, I should have been clearer. I know that according to the rules you do get to flank on a charge.
The real issue is that my DM will only budge on this if he sees a direct quote stating flanking on a charge is possible. It seems there is none so I guess we are out of luck on this issue. Oh well. We'll keep trying logically, but that doens't seem to work with him always. He sees things differently sometimes. But he is overall a really fun DM.
Thanks
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 11:26AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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my DM will only budge on this if he sees a direct quote stating flanking on a charge is possible.
Email customer service. They will send you a reply that technically counts as an 'official' quote, unless your DM can show you in the rules where their reply is incorrect (i.e. per the organized play CCG download "Clarifications issued through the official Game Support team at Wizards of the Coast" "are considered official rules sources").
Mind you: the posters here are more accurate than customer service answers... but there's a good chance that custserv will suffice for your DM.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 12:06PM
#10
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Here's the entry for Flanking from the Compendium:
One of the simplest ways for two allied creatures to gain combat advantage is for them to take up flanking positions adjacent to an enemy.
Combat Advantage: A creature has combat advantage against any enemy it flanks.
Opposite Sides: To flank an enemy, a creature and at least one of its allies must be adjacent to the enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space. When in doubt about whether two creatures flank an enemy, trace an imaginary line between the centers of the creatures’ spaces. If the line passes through opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, the enemy is flanked.
Large, Huge, and Gargantuan Creatures: A Large or larger creature is flanking as long as at least one square of its space qualifies for flanking.
Restrictions: A creature cannot flank an enemy that it can’t see. A creature also cannot flank while it is subject to any effect that prevents it from taking actions. If no line of effect exists between a creature and its enemy, the creature cannot flank the enemy.
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That's it. Specifically, there is nothing in the restrictions about charging. If you meet the Opposite Sides rule, and none of the Restrictions are in effect, then you are flanking, period.
No offense, but your DM needs to be slapped with a wet fish.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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