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9 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 11:57AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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Back in my 1E AD&D days I did some detailed advanced mapping of vast areas. This turned out to be problematic because the players had to already know my world in order to place the origin of their characters. (This would be somewhat simpler for a published setting - the first time I played in Eberron I came in knowing pretty much nothing about the setting but still found it easy to determine where my character pretty much had to be from.)
I have found it a lot easier to be vague. We're starting in Garranton, a seaport on the south coast of a continent. Where are your characters from? "Where's the north coast?" Somewhere north of here. "Okay, my character is from the mountains of the north coast." Sure, I guess there must be some mountains somewhere on the north coast. "But... I want MY character to be from the northern plains." No problem. There are some plains to the north. Are they east, west, or south of the mountains? South, okay, is there a river running north from your plains through a gap in the mountains? Yes? Are the plains folks all nomadic hunters, or is there a respectable amount of farming going on? Lots of farmers. Okay there's a city somewhere along that river, at or near its mouth, because there would be. (Yes, there would - this is a real-world recurring pattern that includes London, New York, and Bangkok plus dozens or hundreds of other cities.) Unless it's so cold that the river freezes over most of the year. Not that cold? The city is named, um, Rimald. I'll figure out why if and when it matters. Did you two meet before you started adventuring?
If two players' ideas of the world CANNOT be reconciled, it's up to the DM to decide what's right. But usually they can.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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9 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 1:34PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2005
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As much as they are willing to provice. If you're in apublcished world, how stuck are you on Canon?
You can break as much as your players will allow. If they start to object, don't break cannon in that area.
Relationships between PC's and NPC's? Do PC backgrounds have enough holes that the DM must fill in with NPC's? Do your players accept these plot hooks (or whatever you'd like to call them)? Do you want your players to come up with new relationships?
They generally do and a DM should make NPCs as long as the PCs are fine with it. If they don't like or want your NPC in their background drop it.
If you're creating your own world, and populating it with new gods, restrictions on races and classes, how much info do you give your players to then fill in other details on their own?
I ask the players to help pick races/gods. Classes aren't something people notice in game, so I don't know why this is in this area. If they don't particulalrly what races or gods, I will work it out myself and let them know.
I'd like it if players came up with hooks and relationships more often, but I don't want them naming every NPC and deciding the population of each town.
Why Not?
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
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9 months ago ::
Oct 02, 2012 - 3:59PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2011
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After all, one of the first things it says in the book is "this is your game, your world, you're the DM, use only what you like" (probably paraphrased that).
Paraphrasing this quote seems very appropriate.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 1:43AM
#14
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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What input should Players have in world building?
I think this could be broken down into different categories too.
World itself- Is it a published world? Is it completely DM-created? Is it loosely based off something else?
I have ideas about several worlds, and at the moment I'm running a game in a world that is loosely based on the 4th ed. cosmology (points of light setting) but has some of its own gods too. I have built 'complete' worlds in the past, although they are usually mere sketches of the world. If players want to add ideas, I'm happy to use them.
Relationships between PC's and NPC's? Do PC backgrounds have enough holes that the DM must fill in with NPC's? Do your players accept these plot hooks (or whatever you'd like to call them)? Do you want your players to come up with new relationships?
My players have all simply sprung into being, without any ties to NPCs despite spending their whole lives thus far in starting location. I present some NPC connections as options, but I don't push the players to present their entire background. I would love it if they had families, I would definitely include those in the adventures, but so far my players haven't been interested in doing the background work. I have considered creating families for them, but I don't want to impinge on their idea of their character.
In one game I prepared for (but never ended up running) I had created a series of families that made up the village, and offered players the opportunity to slot themselves into the existing families. It was a lot of work on my part and unfortunately the game never took off, but I believe the players enjoyed having choices. There was also information about dead families, if the players really wanted to be orphans. And I had adventure hooks tied in with the kidnapping of family members (Labrynth style).
If you're creating your own world, and populating it with new gods, restrictions on races and classes, how much info do you give your players to then fill in other details on their own?
My inclination in the past was to give them all the info, but that proved to be excessive and players simply weren't interested in reading pages and pages of background hand outs. These days if I was doing that, I would offer one or two sentence summaries of the important stuff - a list of gods worshiped in the starting area, some gods they had maybe heard about. A list of races/cultures. A summary of their village/town/city. If they wanted more info I would flesh things out, if they wanted to have things I hadn't considered, I'd probably say yes if it fit the themes of the game. I'd let them create their own background (if they wanted to) and work that into the area if thematic or provide them with a basic background if they gave me nothing to work with.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 4:59AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2012
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As much as you're comfortable with.
A good rule is to allow every player to make any suggestion they want about world building, just so long as they understand that you may not use what they suggest.
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
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9 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 10:31AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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What input should Players have in world building?
I think this could be broken down into different categories too.
World itself- Is it a published world? Is it completely DM-created? Is it loosely based off something else?
I have ideas about several worlds, and at the moment I'm running a game in a world that is loosely based on the 4th ed. cosmology (points of light setting) but has some of its own gods too. I have built 'complete' worlds in the past, although they are usually mere sketches of the world. If players want to add ideas, I'm happy to use them.
Relationships between PC's and NPC's? Do PC backgrounds have enough holes that the DM must fill in with NPC's? Do your players accept these plot hooks (or whatever you'd like to call them)? Do you want your players to come up with new relationships?
My players have all simply sprung into being, without any ties to NPCs despite spending their whole lives thus far in starting location. I present some NPC connections as options, but I don't push the players to present their entire background. I would love it if they had families, I would definitely include those in the adventures, but so far my players haven't been interested in doing the background work. I have considered creating families for them, but I don't want to impinge on their idea of their character.
In one game I prepared for (but never ended up running) I had created a series of families that made up the village, and offered players the opportunity to slot themselves into the existing families. It was a lot of work on my part and unfortunately the game never took off, but I believe the players enjoyed having choices. There was also information about dead families, if the players really wanted to be orphans. And I had adventure hooks tied in with the kidnapping of family members (Labrynth style).
If you're creating your own world, and populating it with new gods, restrictions on races and classes, how much info do you give your players to then fill in other details on their own?
My inclination in the past was to give them all the info, but that proved to be excessive and players simply weren't interested in reading pages and pages of background hand outs. These days if I was doing that, I would offer one or two sentence summaries of the important stuff - a list of gods worshiped in the starting area, some gods they had maybe heard about. A list of races/cultures. A summary of their village/town/city. If they wanted more info I would flesh things out, if they wanted to have things I hadn't considered, I'd probably say yes if it fit the themes of the game. I'd let them create their own background (if they wanted to) and work that into the area if thematic or provide them with a basic background if they gave me nothing to work with.
How much input? Most of my players aren't willing to explain how they became orphans, how old they were when they became orphans and how they survived to adulthood, much less giving input on world-building. If you are fortunate enough to have players who are willing to play something other than carbon-copy agnostic orphan mysterious strangers, you are in luck.
If it's a published world... world-building is a pretty strong word. It's already built. Just remember that if the players have expectations of the world, let them know if you plan to veer away from those expectations so they can properly role-play their PCs.
If you took the time to design a world... describe it and let the players go from there. Be flexible, but the player needs to be flexible too. If you say you have a culture where it is very important that arcane spell-users wear pointy hats with stars and moons on it and the player chooses to play a sorcerer in that land and goes blasting spells without the funny hat, he can't really complain if the Guild of Safe Sorcery sends the Mage Slayers after him. If the player says... the purpose of the hat is to warn the non-spell-users, right? Can we just say that mages wear a specific color... as a point of honor? That wouldn't break the world, right?
Loosely-based worlds... like published worlds, players will have expectations. If you plan to vary, let them know. And let them know why.
Playes input is generally good. Unless the player is wanting to play a carbon-copy agnostic orphan mysterious stranger. In that case... you're on your own.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 12:20PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2007
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As much as you're comfortable with.
A good rule is to allow every player to make any suggestion they want about world building, just so long as they understand that you may not use what they suggest.
This is really at the heart of world building. I've played the fate rpg, where the players involvement is very high. Players are always suggesting ideas, but not every player will want to be involved. You might also find some player suggestions are just too self-serving.
Example, a player suggestion his character rules the world and all the players are his subjects.
I've only built one world in my time as GM, it's hard work. So help from players could make this process much easier.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 12:55PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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Example, a player suggestion his character rules the world and all the players are his subjects.
It's fair to draw the line at things that directly impact the other players, but even self-serving ideas can be useful. So, the player suggests that his character rules the world: can that be modified, or qualified? What's his reasoning, then, for being an adventurer? What's at stake? He still has only the resources of a normal character, so why is that? Fflewddur Fflam was a king, albeit a minor one, but he still adventured, so there's some precedence. So, if something like this is really suggestion and not just as a joke, consider exploring it.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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9 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 10:21PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2007
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Example, a player suggestion his character rules the world and all the players are his subjects.
It's fair to draw the line at things that directly impact the other players, but even self-serving ideas can be useful. So, the player suggests that his character rules the world: can that be modified, or qualified? What's his reasoning, then, for being an adventurer? What's at stake? He still has only the resources of a normal character, so why is that? Fflewddur Fflam was a king, albeit a minor one, but he still adventured, so there's some precedence. So, if something like this is really suggestion and not just as a joke, consider exploring it.
I don't disagree at all, modification of a player's idea for the game world is at the GM's discretion. And in no way was I suggesting that it not be explored. But players will find little ways of gaining an edge in the game unintentionally and intentionally. Unexpected implications can occur when a players character has enormous power or influence in the game world. The GM just needs to think carefully about the consequences of a character having so much power, or whatever it might be.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 04, 2012 - 2:26AM
#20
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I have only created one world and when i did I just laid a foundation. I created main cities as well as the type of climates around the cities. This way the players just have a basic idea of the world as well allowing the option of players to help create any major events.
I would also take any suggestion that a player makes and allow as long is it isn't a complete joke ( meaning ill take suggestions that may be meant as semi-joke). Another thing i would try to avoid doing is completely creating everything that exists in the world as many portions will likely not ever be used.
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