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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 7:01AM
#491
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Perhaps you'd like to give an example or reason behind your belief?
Things like people started bringing books like Spell Compendium to the table and expecting you to implement every spell within said book.
Spell Compendium was developed for 2nd edition D&D. They are great books. It just shows that this is not new to 'modern' D&D.
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D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 7:05AM
#492
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Vic, my question is serious. How is 3e's Magic Compendium different from 2e's Tome of Magic?
SIMPLE!
Copyright Date, and publisher.
I agree with you though.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 7:11AM
#493
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Please, Dark Sun is full of clerics and druids, another divine class.
There were no actual clerics in AD&D Darksun. There may be now with the everything is core philosophy.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 7:14AM
#494
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Perhaps you'd like to give an example or reason behind your belief?
Things like people started bringing books like Spell Compendium to the table and expecting you to implement every spell within said book.
Spell Compendium was developed for 2nd edition D&D. They are great books. It just shows that this is not new to 'modern' D&D.
I think he is probably talking about the 3.5e Spell Compendium which included many "game breaker" spells that didn't appear before that book, as well as many swift action spells. It was a game changer and not it a good way. Many Players loved it because it was so broken, and many DMs disallowed it in toto because of the same.
This also answers wrecan's question about what was different between the 2e and 3e versions.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 7:17AM
#495
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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For what it's worth, I don't think player or DM entitlement are anything new. It's been a point of debate more or less as long as D&D's been around, and it's why most games you play around a table don't have someone there making the game setting up as you go. This argument is beginning to strike me as the same sort of thing I see at a football game where someone is screaming at the referee for not awarding a penalty. Seems to me that it will always be a point of contention. As a side note, I've also noticed that D&D is peculiar in that we tend to argue in terms of logical extremes when not playing but when we are playing we tend to avoid logical extremes. I've found the rulings made in the course of play are generally much better than the ones made out of play. Maybe that's just my experience but I daresay most rulings made in play are quicker and everyone generally gets some of what they want.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 8:10AM
#496
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I think he is probably talking about the 3.5e Spell Compendium which included many "game breaker" spells that didn't appear before that book, as well as many swift action spells. It was a game changer and not it a good way. Many Players loved it because it was so broken, and many DMs disallowed it in toto because of the same.
Except that doesn't explain the "player entitlement" issue. The problem is the Spell Compendium was unbalanced, not that players felt entitled to use Spell Compendium. Similarly, players felt equally entitled to use Tome of Magic.
If you are correct, then Vic is confusing "entitlement" with "balance" and that would be a very odd thing to be confused about, so I don't think that's Vic's point. But I can't tell what Vic's point is because he hasn't chosen to explain it further. He just thinks that 3e encourages "player entitlement" in a way 2e did not.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 8:20AM
#497
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2004
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Please, Dark Sun is full of clerics and druids, another divine class.
There were no actual clerics in AD&D Darksun. There may be now with the everything is core philosophy.
They were worshipping elemental powers instead of gods, they had to chose between the four elements. Epic clerics could transform into big elementals like psionicist/wizards were able to turn into dragons or avangions.
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion
"Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe
"In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer
"Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition.
"you shouldn't even bother trying to become like me." - Gary Gygax (Elfcrusher confirmed)
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 8:21AM
#498
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Except that doesn't explain the "player entitlement" issue. The problem is the Spell Compendium was unbalanced, not that players felt entitled to use Spell Compendium. Similarly, players felt equally entitled to use Tome of Magic.
If you are correct, then Vic is confusing "entitlement" with "balance" and that would be a very odd thing to be confused about, so I don't think that's Vic's point. But I can't tell what Vic's point is because he hasn't chosen to explain it further. He just thinks that 3e encourages "player entitlement" in a way 2e did not.
No it doesn't. I was just pointing out that the 2e Spell Compendiums were just reprints of collected existing spells, and 3.5e was not. I think maybe he was using a player wanting to use such an obviously broken splatbook, and feeling entitled to it as an example, but I'm late to this part of the discussion.
IMO I don't think 3e/3.5e had any more player entitlement in its language than 2e did, but I think 4e definitely did. My first and strongest impression reading the 4e core books in the summer of 2008 was, "boy they are letting the inmates run the asylum." It was the biggest impression I got from the language used that players were to be catered to by the DM. I don't recall that at all in older editions, and remember 1e especially being full of references to intentionally screwing over troublesome, entitled players. So I would still argue that there has been a steady progression toward giving players a sense of entitlement (IMO to the detriment of the hobby).
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 8:29AM
#499
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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On a more on topic note, the inclusion of multiple types of casting system options for wizard is getting me to think about my setting.
There are 5 main wizard groups in my setting. Each group "learn" magic a different way. So in game I fluffed psions for the Purple Men and dragonic sorcerers for the Archwizards of Sardinia.
Now I am pondering giving each wizard school a different casting style over refluffing the class. Sandinian and Guild wizards could have spell points while Tradional North Kingdom and Elven wizards use spell slots. Hmmm...
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 8:39AM
#500
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I was just pointing out that the 2e Spell Compendiums were just reprints of collected existing spells, and 3.5e was not.
Ok, but in my original question to Vic, I used Complete Book of Elves, which was a supplement,a nd not of reprinted material. And he still didn't answer the question.
The issue is not whether 3e was unbalanced, but how it encouraged player entitlement in a way that 2e did not. Both had splatbooks and both had playrs who felt entitled to rely on them.
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