My view of HP, is that every hit is a wound of some sort. You get hit by a sword, and it will cut you. However, HP is not meant to represent this damage, but rather, the ability to fight on in spite of it. Or another way to think abour it is that it reduces the severity of the wound itself: an attack that would be a grievious injury to a commoner, might only be a flesh-wound to a veteran fighter. So a warlord doesn't really 'stitch up' the would by shouting at it, but inspires the ally to fight past it. If you want to rule that it's temp HP, you could treat it as something like adrenaline, which, once the fight is over, fades away, but you could also treat it like real HP, by saying that they gain the boost to fight on in spite of their injuries in that fight, and they bandage themselves up between the scenes, healing the fleshy part.
Now the arguement could come up "Why couldn't they just bandage themselves up without a warlord's healing, if that's your justification?" and the answer to that is simple: In my view of HP, it's not the wounds that knock someone out of the fight, but finally losing the ability or will to fight past them. You can put a bandage on a wound, and cause it to heal faster, but you can't put a bandage on weakened morale, so just because your wound is healing faster doesn't mean you're ready to keep fighting.
How do you apply that same concept to golems, zombies, gelatinous cubes, and various other creatures with special morale considerations and/or language constraints? How exactly does the warlord heal the wizard's pet ooze or the clerics zombie trap finder?
Warlord: Get up Ooze boy! Don't let them think your mother was a pudding!
Yeah that doesn't work for me.
Unless I'm mistaken, in the past morale effects (which I would classify most warlord abilities under) have been considered Mind-Affecting, and have no effect on mindless creatures. So no, a Warlord won't be doing much to help the Wizard's pet ooze or zombie. But he can still help the party, and if the Cleric has a Lich or Deathknight follower rather than a mindless zombie, the Warlord's abilities will help more than pumping positive energy into it.
So the warlord can't heal all the time.
Would you be ok with Darkness and Silence nullifying the warlord?
What about a more simple situation. One in which the warlord is behind (can't be seen) and doesn't speak the same language as the recipient of his morale therapy?
Would you be ok with Darkness and Silence nullifying the warlord?
Sure. Same as it would nullify a cleric.
What about a more simple situation. One in which the warlord is behind (can't be seen) and doesn't speak the same language as the recipient of his morale therapy?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I have a question for all those who love the warlord so much.
Would the class be acceptable if it used something called "Inspired Magic" or "Battle Magic"?
Would it be acceptable to you if the Fighter got a similar designation?
To me it doesn't matter, but I would want it to be consistent. A Warlord, Fighter, and Rogue are equally mundane, they just focus on different things. If you want the mundane classes using 'battle magic' or 'inherent magic' or whatever to justify their ability to do things normal people cannot, I am fine with it. But if you want to try to arbitrarily give the Warlord some sort of magic while refusing to acknowledge the other mundane classes as also having some sort of magic, then I have a problem with it.
Honestly, I'd be happy with some martial classes having access to magic. In pre-4e D&D, the DM simply handed out magical items to the martial types to keep them in the game at high level. Items like rings of spell turning, boots of flying, helms of teleportation, etc. With that in mind, handing out magic to the martial classes would have the same end result.
I really don't want to see open ended and powerful wizard spells nerfed for the sake of balacing the classes. That concept was tried in 4e and it killed the game for me. Therefore, I see no reason why a martial type couldn't have access to a specific type of magic, especially in a world that is full of magic.
With that said, I would expect a dispel magic spell to work on the monk as he floats through air (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon style) .
Any high end skill or endeavor of the Ancient Celts had magic... Blacksmith Magic, Warrior Magic... I have already mentioned the concept of Kings Magic.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I like the idea of a Warlord not having any magic of any kind. To my thinking, I may as well play a cleric for that.
That being said, it looks like there are two schools of thought on HP that become important in regards to the Warlord: does HP represent physical health only, or does it abstractly represent, as the current playtest rules state, "the character's ability to continue fighting"?
It seems to me that D&D has worked and felt like D&D just fine with HP being the abstraction. Also, a Warlord's healing still makes sense in this context. I mean, what physical damage does Psychic damage do, exactly? A character that takes nothing but psychic damage can still die, right? There is the precedent.
Besides, isn't it one of the best fantasy tropes that a hero gets up and continues to fight, despite literally impossible-to-live-with wounds? And what do we say about them? "They continued to fight through sheer force of will." The Warlord inspires this in others. We're don't need to say Warlords physically heal anybody - they, as they are, enable one of the coolest types of fantasy moments. No temporary hit points needed, no magic needed. Sure, it has its drawbacks (Silence &/or Language barriers, etc.), but so does spellcasting (needing voice and a hand free). That's what keeps it balanced. I'm cool with that.
By the way, just to confirm... not a specialty, then?
"Our idea of rules modules has a wide range of scope; sometimes, our rules modules might just be small tweaks and variant rules, while other times they could be large-scale changes and entirely new subsystems. We want people to make the game their own, and that means provided a whole array of possibilities based on what you, the players, tell us that you want." -D&DNext Q&A Blog, 8/29/12, Answer #3.
Provide proof that warlord healing was the primary factor in 4e sales not keeping up, or even a significant contributing factor.
Right after you produce evidence that people who dislike martial powers healing actual hp is an insignificant minority, as you previously claimed.
I don't think you can provide proof. Just anecdotal evidence that you and your friends who think similarly to you agree that it's bad.
Except I said I like martial powers healing full hp!!! I said it twice!!!! You're the one making claims and then demanding I prove the contrary, and you have the gall to attribute to me an opinion I twice refuted?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I have a question for all those who love the warlord so much.
Would the class be acceptable if it used something called "Inspired Magic" or "Battle Magic"?
Why can't a bit of the flavor be allowed to be decided by the player, assuming the DM permits both options? something like:
A warlord is a great inspirational and strategic battlefield leader. Some warlords rely solely on their sharp mind and their force of personality. Others gain their leadership ability as a boon from the gods. Others still devote themselves to the arcane study of inspirational magic.
Then the DM can say "No, I don't want mundane healing in my campaign, but you could have it be a divine boon." And specialties allow players to support whichever source they choose, by letting them take "Acolyte" if they want it to be divine, or "Magic-User" if they want the abilites to be arcane in nature, or take some sort of fighting specialty, like Guardian, if they want to be mundane.
The only problem that this runs into is that if the DM allowed the player to use any source, using the martial power-source would be slightly more beneficial, since it couldn't be affected by stuff that dispels magic, but I see that as a much more minor problem, in comparison.
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