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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 2:38PM
#41
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What I think would help the Ranger archetype a lot would be for wilderness hazards to be as dangerous as they are in real life. The last two editions have coddled characters big-time in this regard, and prior to that it was hardly codified in any coherant manner.
I want to see real dangers with:
Starvation
Thirst
Suffocation
Getting lost
Water hazards
Exposure
Infection
Falling
Drowning
Landslides
Bogs
etc...
All the above help make heroic stories, give these real teeth such as the example of falling damage, and the Ranger's story makes a heck of a lot more sense.
the problems they need to avoid are A) making the ranger so vital that to not have one is susicide B) that you dont have situations where the ranger is the only one doing anything
and personly I feel past a certain level you should just be able to get by all mundain obstacles easily, a PC who can take on a elder dragon should not be chalanged by a bog, a PC who can take on a demigod and win should not care if he has to has to climb a mountain.
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 3:04PM
#42
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the problems they need to avoid are A) making the ranger so vital that to not have one is susicide B) that you dont have situations where the ranger is the only one doing anything
and personly I feel past a certain level you should just be able to get by all mundain obstacles easily, a PC who can take on a elder dragon should not be chalanged by a bog, a PC who can take on a demigod and win should not care if he has to has to climb a mountain.
I doubt these things would make the Ranger vital. A lot of these things can be mitigated by maps, roads, guides, provisions, boats, shelter, avoiding rough terrain etc... It's just with a wise Ranger in the party you have more wilderness/overland options available.
Your elder dragon, demigod examples address the combat pillar - but why should combat skill directly translate into exploration (or social interaction) skill? Indirectly it would through the boosting of stats, aquisition of skills (if you use those) & the accumulation of quality adventuring gear. But directly? I don't thinks so.
A successful adventurer should be a well rounded figure. Where they have a weakness they should shore it up through a dozen different options as they aquire experience. Failing to do so (and not retiring), I have no problem with natural selection weeding out the unready.
And I don't think a deadly natural environment should be a module, it should be hard-coded core just like falling damage, which by the way makes higher level characters less vulnerable to the environment in any case because they have more HPs.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 9:37PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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What I think would help the Ranger archetype a lot would be for wilderness hazards to be as dangerous as they are in real life. The last two editions have coddled characters big-time in this regard, and prior to that it was hardly codified in any coherant manner.
I want to see real dangers with:
Starvation
Thirst
Suffocation
Getting lost
Water hazards
Exposure
Infection
Falling
Drowning
Landslides
Bogs
etc...
All the above help make heroic stories, give these real teeth such as the example of falling damage, and the Ranger's story makes a heck of a lot more sense.
I'd love to see all of those but I also don't want to force these things on DMs.
Prehaps you could do something like the 1e-3E rogue. The Rogue was clearly the best choice for dealing with 2 common obstacles, locks and traps (barring cheaps magic). But other classes could attempt it to if need be.
Rangers could be assigned a few obstacles that they could be the best choice (or one of) to deal with.
For example: Hostile animals and low intelligence beasts..
Party w/o ranger: Fight the bear
Party w/ ranger: Charm and walk past bear.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 03, 2012 - 11:15PM
#44
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the problems they need to avoid are A) making the ranger so vital that to not have one is susicide B) that you dont have situations where the ranger is the only one doing anything
and personly I feel past a certain level you should just be able to get by all mundain obstacles easily, a PC who can take on a elder dragon should not be chalanged by a bog, a PC who can take on a demigod and win should not care if he has to has to climb a mountain.
I doubt these things would make the Ranger vital. A lot of these things can be mitigated by maps, roads, guides, provisions, boats, shelter, avoiding rough terrain etc... It's just with a wise Ranger in the party you have more wilderness/overland options available.
Your elder dragon, demigod examples address the combat pillar - but why should combat skill directly translate into exploration (or social interaction) skill? Indirectly it would through the boosting of stats, aquisition of skills (if you use those) & the accumulation of quality adventuring gear. But directly? I don't thinks so.
A successful adventurer should be a well rounded figure. Where they have a weakness they should shore it up through a dozen different options as they aquire experience. Failing to do so (and not retiring), I have no problem with natural selection weeding out the unready.
And I don't think a deadly natural environment should be a module, it should be hard-coded core just like falling damage, which by the way makes higher level characters less vulnerable to the environment in any case because they have more HPs.
in general challenges that are deadly at level 1, should be easy to the point of not needing a roll at some point, by 10 for sure this goes for creatures you are fighting as well as envirmental stuff
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
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8 months ago ::
Oct 04, 2012 - 3:08AM
#45
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I'd love to see all of those but I also don't want to force these things on DMs.
Prehaps you could do something like the 1e-3E rogue. The Rogue was clearly the best choice for dealing with 2 common obstacles, locks and traps (barring cheaps magic). But other classes could attempt it to if need be.
Rangers could be assigned a few obstacles that they could be the best choice (or one of) to deal with.
For example: Hostile animals and low intelligence beasts..
Party w/o ranger: Fight the bear
Party w/ ranger: Charm and walk past bear.
I don't quite understand when you say you don't want to force these things on DMs. Are there games out there where hazards and the environment are switched off? What happens when characters fall, run out of food, get caught in a flood? Are these not worthy encounters? When I prep a wilderness area I'll assign likely terrain hazards, determine the seasonal weather, plus whatever populates the locales. Reading a map, talking with a local or simply looking about will reveal most of these things.
You don't need Rangers to overcome these obstacles. A decent map, roads, mounts, ships & coin solve a lot of overland travel issues. Having nature skills, someone with strong wisdom or a local guide means you can cut off the beaten track more safely. Heck, a mule laden with extra provisions can almost wipe out he threat of starvation for most expeditions. A Ranger should simply allow you to do more for less, and sometimes that'll prove a really neat advantage.
Obstacles that Ranger can help overcome can scale with level, and that is easily done by assigning levels to the various wilderness hazards, and giving the Ranger class options to develop. You can think of examples, for example only a high level Ranger could hope to cross the Himalayas without adequate starting equipment.
I agree that the wilderness hazards shouldn't be suicide for a non-Ranger, in fact many hazards will simply frustrate & slow the party - weather being the obvious example.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 04, 2012 - 3:17AM
#46
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in general challenges that are deadly at level 1, should be easy to the point of not needing a roll at some point, by 10 for sure this goes for creatures you are fighting as well as envirmental stuff
In general I agree. Which is why all classes should show some improvement in the exploration, social interaction and combat pillars as they level up.
However there are some things such as drowning, exposure and starvation which are never really resolved while the characters are mortals - magic items and spells aside.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 04, 2012 - 4:18AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I don't quite understand when you say you don't want to force these things on DMs. Are there games out there where hazards and the environment are switched off? What happens when characters fall, run out of food, get caught in a flood? Are these not worthy encounters? When I prep a wilderness area I'll assign likely terrain hazards, determine the seasonal weather, plus whatever populates the locales. Reading a map, talking with a local or simply looking about will reveal most of these things.
You don't need Rangers to overcome these obstacles. A decent map, roads, mounts, ships & coin solve a lot of overland travel issues. Having nature skills, someone with strong wisdom or a local guide means you can cut off the beaten track more safely. Heck, a mule laden with extra provisions can almost wipe out he threat of starvation for most expeditions. A Ranger should simply allow you to do more for less, and sometimes that'll prove a really neat advantage.
Obstacles that Ranger can help overcome can scale with level, and that is easily done by assigning levels to the various wilderness hazards, and giving the Ranger class options to develop. You can think of examples, for example only a high level Ranger could hope to cross the Himalayas without adequate starting equipment.
I agree that the wilderness hazards shouldn't be suicide for a non-Ranger, in fact many hazards will simply frustrate & slow the party - weather being the obvious example.
Yeah, some DM's handwave the travel to the dungeon. Crazy, huh? I'd NEVER do that but it happened to me.
A lot of DMs do and it is at the point where you can't force it now.
I would love for Rangers to smooth the party over weather hazards, natural hazards, and environmental dsasters.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 04, 2012 - 9:28AM
#48
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I'd love to see all of those but I also don't want to force these things on DMs.
Things that GMs have direct control over the rules for are the easiest for a GM to strip out. If a GM doesn't want his party to starve if they don't eat, all he needs to do is simply not say anything about starvation. If a character jumps from a great height, it's easy for a GM to say "right, as long as you don't fumble, you can get back up immediately and avoid all injury." He can ignore heat, cold, diseases, anything he wants to, and most players won't bat an eyelid.
Everything expressed in this post is my opinion, and should be taken as such. I can not declare myself to be the supreme authority on all matters...even though I am right!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 04, 2012 - 10:42AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2012
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Just a little thing about the ranger weapon skills. As a "woodlander", I see the ranger with longsword and shield, with long/short bow and cutlass, or even with spear and shortsword as a hunter. But definitely not with 2 scimitars a la Drizzt, keep in mind that Drizzt dual wielding comes from his time in Menzoberrazan as a warrior/fighter trainee, it has nothing to do with his ranger training.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 04, 2012 - 12:37PM
#50
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Yeah, some DM's handwave the travel to the dungeon. Crazy, huh? I'd NEVER do that but it happened to me.
A lot of DMs do and it is at the point where you can't force it now.
I would love for Rangers to smooth the party over weather hazards, natural hazards, and environmental dsasters.
I'm fine with hand waving the travel, it can make a lot of sense if the dungeon location is easily accessable.
But even so, in the dungeon there is climbing up & down, swimming & holding breath, sensing & evading rockfalls, etc.. The Ranger should have an advantage when interacting with the natural environment, in addition to being encouraged to assign good scores to their wisdom & physical attributes.
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