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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 8:44AM
#111
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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I know several of the people heavily involved in this thread, and have a lot of respect for even more of them, but the thread itself puzzles me...
... because my answer to the question in the thread title is: The fact that you're playing a role-playing game.
Isn't that what the gamemaster is supposed to do?
Yes it is.
But you have some hippies in here who think the gamemaster's responsibility is to facilitate an environment where everyone feels special and no one can be told "no" or do badly in the game due to their own bad decision making skills, randomness, or lack of understanding consequences.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 9:03AM
#112
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Isn't that what the gamemaster is supposed to do?
Yes, in part. A scene without complications is a scene that can simply be narrated and moved past. The trick is when a player sees a complication as overreaching or "railroading." (And I use that term in the sense others have used it, not as I understand the concept.)
Yes it is.
But you have some hippies in here who think the gamemaster's responsibility is to facilitate an environment where everyone feels special and no one can be told "no" or do badly in the game due to their own bad decision making skills, randomness, or lack of understanding consequences.
While I'm sure any decent human being will want a game where everyone feels special, there's not a single person arguing in favor of the rest of your strawman.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 9:10AM
#113
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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Isn't that what the gamemaster is supposed to do?
Yes, in part. A scene without complications is a scene that can simply be narrated and moved past. The trick is when a player sees a complication as overreaching or "railroading." (And I use that term in the sense others have used it, not as I understand the concept.)
Yes it is.
But you have some hippies in here who think the gamemaster's responsibility is to facilitate an environment where everyone feels special and no one can be told "no" or do badly in the game due to their own bad decision making skills, randomness, or lack of understanding consequences.
While I'm sure any decent human being will want a game where everyone feels special, there's not a single person arguing in favor of the rest of your strawman.
In your games, everyone is handed the right to feel special by having the ability to wave their hand at the DM and make whatever they want to happen, happen. In mine you earn the right to feel special by accomplishing goals by making good decisions and having a bit of luck, there's a huge difference. But it's a different topic for another thread at some point in the future. I don't feel like derailing this thread, so feel free to post whatever comment you have about what I'm saying not being true.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 9:13AM
#114
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In your games, everyone is handed the right to feel special by having the ability to wave their hand at the DM and make whatever they want to happen, happen. In mine you earn the right to feel special by accomplishing goals by making good decisions and having a bit of luck...
In my game, there's both.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 10:17AM
#115
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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I know several of the people heavily involved in this thread, and have a lot of respect for even more of them, but the thread itself puzzles me...
... because my answer to the question in the thread title is: The fact that you're playing a role-playing game.
Isn't that what the gamemaster is supposed to do?
I think it's much more complicated than that.
It's one thing for the players to have monsters go after them when the PCs get involved in trying to help someone out. The players didn't cause the problem, but they might be victims of it, and they're the ones to solve it. That's heroism, from Beowulf on.
It's another thing for the PCs to actually be at fault, or for the DM to arrange things so that the characters must make or must have made a mistake. This carries a heavy risk of "deprotagonization," changing the PCs from heroes to the cause of the kinds of problems that heroes are supposed to prevent. That's somewhat less traditional, and it's more likely to run counter to someone's idea of their own character.
But situations like that are pretty classic. Aragorn was tortured by how he seemed to keep making mistakes and causing problems for the Fellowship, even leading to it breaking. But he was pretty much the only one who thought that, and events were mostly out of his control. But because this kind of thing can clash with the hero archetype, if we're talking about a "bad spot" that assumes the characters themselves screwed up, or gave up, or caused problems, there needs to be firm buy-in (up-front, if possible) from the players. This is an area where the DM must tread lightly.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 2:47AM
#116
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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I know several of the people heavily involved in this thread, and have a lot of respect for even more of them, but the thread itself puzzles me...
... because my answer to the question in the thread title is: The fact that you're playing a role-playing game.
Isn't that what the gamemaster is supposed to do?
Did you read the first post, or just the title? Because the question involves a hell of a lot more than the title implies.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 9:56AM
#117
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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you have some hippies in here who think the gamemaster's responsibility is to facilitate an environment where everyone feels special and no one can be told "no" or do badly in the game due to their own bad decision making skills, randomness, or lack of understanding consequences.
Those hippies are the 4e writers. The rest of us have cold, black souls that feed on our player's salty tears.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 2:24PM
#118
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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you have some hippies in here who think the gamemaster's responsibility is to facilitate an environment where everyone feels special and no one can be told "no" or do badly in the game due to their own bad decision making skills, randomness, or lack of understanding consequences.
Those hippies are the 4e writers. The rest of us have cold, black souls that feed on our player's salty tears.
Ah, my people! Where have you been hiding?
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 2:25PM
#119
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Ah, my people! Where have you been hiding?
We're all around you if you're just stop attacking for a moment and really listen to what we're saying. 
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 3:05PM
#120
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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you have some hippies in here who think the gamemaster's responsibility is to facilitate an environment where everyone feels special and no one can be told "no" or do badly in the game due to their own bad decision making skills, randomness, or lack of understanding consequences.
Those hippies are the 4e writers. The rest of us have cold, black souls that feed on our player's salty tears.
Ah, my people! Where have you been hiding?
'Adversarial' tends to be most of our natural inclinations. Conversely, the 4e DMG virtually teaches us "the gamemaster's responsibility is to facilitate an environment where everyone feels special and no one can be told "no" or do badly in the game". It's not necessarily a bad paradigm (as it will likely make the game more fun and avoid arguments), just different. Maybe they felt that we could manage the adversarial mindset just fine without any tips.
At the very least, it gives us insight that things will simply go over better if you get player buy in before putting them in a spot.
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