Hey guys, my friend and I want to run a game for something different than 4e, because while 4e is nice to get you started (prior to playing it last year my experience was Warhammer from back when I was 11, that is ten years ago...) it gets really simple really quick, and the combat while nice and flashy, poses almost no danger.
So I started wondering, what old edition of D&D is possibly the most complex (and in that way fun) one? I'm thinking about it from the standpoint of combat difficoulty, actual skill count, the vastness of general rules for different subjects, and so on. I've noticed that in 4e a lot of the stuff is generaly on a "figure it out yourself" basis which is not bad but I'd like a bit more restriction coming from the rules because believe it or not, I think that affects role playing in a major way (for me at least).
So yeah. Please give me opinions on which system is best in that reguard.
No such thing as Ad&d 3e, Only Ad&d 1e and 2e, if you wanna game where the rules tell you what to do so you don't have to think for yourself then play "wizards of the coast pen and paper game" 3e(which is actually their 1e because they only use the name of another game for the title of their game). They could have called their game "Rifts 2e" but it still just be "Wizards of the coast pen and paper game 1e", meaning 4e is actually "Wizards of the coast pen and paper game 2e" and "next" finally being "Wizards of the coast pen and paper game 3e".
I know there is no such thing as AD&D 3e. I meant them all as separate. After I opened this topic I looked around a bit more and I think we'll just play 3.5, it seems to have the best of old and new-ish.
It is nothing like TSR D&D 1e, Ad&d 1e or ad&d 2e, it doesn't have the best of the old, it is a different game altogether, unless you meant 3.5 has the best of 3e. You can have a opinion on this but I am simply stating facts, be like having a opinion that 1+1 doesn't equal 2. Truth isn't always appealing or supports your views.
I'd guess that 3.5 is the most complex of the DnD games although trying to figure out how all the rules in the earlier editions go together can get pretty complex as well. The earlier editions have all these option rules which may or may not work together but in many ways they are pretty simple because there really aren't that many choices to make. In the early editions I like to say that what distinguishes you are your class, ability scores, then your magic items/equipment and maybe your spells. With 3e you get to throw in all those skills and feats plus multiclassing is a LOT easier which in turn gives you a world of options that really weren't so available before.
I'd guess that 3.5 is the most complex of the DnD games although trying to figure out how all the rules in the earlier editions go together can get pretty complex as well. The earlier editions have all these option rules which may or may not work together but in many ways they are pretty simple because there really aren't that many choices to make. In the early editions I like to say that what distinguishes you are your class, ability scores, then your magic items/equipment and maybe your spells. With 3e you get to throw in all those skills and feats plus multiclassing is a LOT easier which in turn gives you a world of options that really weren't so available before.
The complexity in the systems, I think, stems more from what they're trying to communicate.
1e's confusion often came from, frankly, poor writing. This got better over time (the BECMI series is a lot better, for instance), but it was basically admitted in the introduction to the 2e player's handbook, where the points listed FIRST when justifying the new edition were making it easier to find things and making the rules easier to understand.
2e's complexity largely came because the development didn't have centralized guidelines - different groups developed and didn't talk too much to each other. Similarly, while it began the move to introduce what would later be called "descriptors" or "keywords" in a few places, it largely left things up to the authors. That's why your spells, for instance, have incredibly large lists of how they interact with other spells, instead of the descriptor/keyword system used in later editions. (I don't have an AD&D handbook handy, but I do have the 3.5 Erase spell, which quizzically is worded in almost exactly the same way as many 2e effects. It shows what I mean.)
1e and 2e also shared a similar source of complexity: Lack of templating. Templating, in this case, refers to a standardized set of language and syntax used for expressing similar rules. (You can see templating taken to the extreme in Wizards products: Magic in particular, but also 4e and to a lesser extent 3e.) For example, consider the 1e bard requirements: "Bards begin play as fighters… until they have achieved at least 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as druids; but at this time they are actually bards under druidical tutelage." That makes syntactical sense, but it's arbitrarily worded (note how it alternates between "5th level" and "the 8th level", for instance), and the information it expresses could be much better expressed as a list rather than prose.
3e's complexity is of a completely different sort than this. Things were made clearer, anddramatically more consistent with reality - but the system was also made with "system mastery" in mind, where experience with a system would reveal "good" and "bad" choices and lead to experienced players producing better characters. This creates a mentality of an arms race of sorts even if there's no power creep (there was a bit, but compared to other systems, I'm astonished at how modest it actually was), since players learn to think like rules lawyers. The complexity that built up around 3e largely involves communicating and developing system mastery, while previous editions involved cutting through a Gordion knot of poor communication.
4e kept 3e's overall approach, but limited the options into bundles: you couldn't do the hojillion-multiclassing thing anymore, you were fixed into a specific role and power source from level 1 on, but within that fixing you still had a degree of choices to work with. In short, it tried to keep what made 3e simpler (codified, consistent rules) and restricted the sheer number of choices available to any single character, which is why it is largely considered "simpler".
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
Thank you for the answers. We're still deciding between just 3e or 3.5e but we'll probably hold around that range. Maybe some day we'll play a bit of AD&D or something... who knows maybe Spycraft xP
But I can already say that despite not getting as many "flashy" things as I would for lvl 1 in 4e I enjoyed making a lvl 1 rogue halfling for 3.5 far more.
Thank you for the answers. We're still deciding between just 3e or 3.5e but we'll probably hold around that range. Maybe some day we'll play a bit of AD&D or something... who knows maybe Spycraft xP
But I can already say that despite not getting as many "flashy" things as I would for lvl 1 in 4e I enjoyed making a lvl 1 rogue halfling for 3.5 far more.
I'd recommend 3.5. It fixes some broken things from 3.0 and there's just more material available overall for 3.5. Also if you can get your hands on the Rules Compendium, that's a very handy book to have at the table. It makes a quick rules check very easy.
I think this is more of a personal thing than it is a question of which edition is more complex than another. It's akin to chocolate vs. vanilla - which flavor will you pick most of the time when given the choice?
All editions have their pros and cons, and it's really a matter of which editions' pros outweigh that editions' cons more than the others. For example, a previous poster indicated that 1E's complexity stemmed from an admitted lack of cohesive writing. While I have to agree that the the writing was bad (look at Assassins, for example - ick), in my personal opinion that didn't make the system complex. But that's me, and not necessarily what anybody else would think and/or say.
All in all, just go with whatever one makes the most sense to you and the group you are gaming with. Whichever one you deem is the most fun will be the best one for you, because gaming is all about having fun.
