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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 1:28AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2008
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This is a work in progress. Advice/tips/critique is most appreciated.
Creds to Mommy_was_an_Orc for the idea
MwaO made the suggestion of a Fighter|Pally build to take full advantage of the classes' compatible mark punishment mechanics a while back, and since I've found nothing similar on CharOp (besides perhaps the Polepally), I figured it was a good idea to present a 1-30 build. Build Concept
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The Challenging Champion aims primarily to optimize defender performance by combining a Fighter's pimped out CC MBA punishment with the Pally's "infinite range no-action auto-hit"-DC/DS punishment and associated options.
From this, the build simply tries to gather the best options from both classes to improve its "Divine Combat Challenge" mechanic, for example:
- Flail slide-proning package for nasty CC attacks and OAs
- Champion of Order for lasting lockdown and punishment through OAs
- Mass-DS and lasting mark powers
- "Black Hole"-powers such as Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging
- Markless punishment such as Knightly Intercession and Dust Storm Assault
- Front loaded action-denial powers such as Mark of Terror and Stunning Smite
The rest is pretty standard Fighter/Pally primary defender stuff along with a few unusual item choices.
Level 1-30 Summary
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Challenging Champion, level 30
Half-Orc, Fighter/Paladin, Champion of Order, Indomitable Champion
Hybrid Talent: One-handed Weapon Talent
Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much
Ironwrought
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 28, CON 16, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 24, CHA 13
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 11
AC: 51 (49 bloodied) Fort: 51 Ref: 47 Will: 49
HP: 225 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 56
Inititative: +31 Speed: 7
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +26, Endurance +22, Insight +27
POWERS
Ironwrought Attack: Inevitable Strike
Half-Orc Racial Power: Furious Assault
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Paladin Attack 1: Ardent Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Passing Attack
Fighter Attack 1: Villain's Menace
Paladin Utility 2: Call of Challenge
Paladin Attack 3: Hold Fast
Paladin Attack 5: Arc of Vengeance
Paladin Utility 2: Virtue
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Paladin Attack 9: Knightly Intercession
Fighter Utility 10: Clearheaded
Champion of Order Attack 11: Certain Justice
Champion of Order Utility 12: None Shall Pass
Paladin Attack 13: Castigating Strike
Fighter Attack 15: Dust Storm Assault
Paladin Utility 16: Divine Aegis
Paladin Attack 17: Mark of Terror
Fighter Attack 19: Strike of the Watchful Guard
Champion of Order Attack 20: Rule of Order
Fighter Utility 22: Prescient Shield
Fighter Attack 23: Warrior's Urging
Paladin Attack 25: Roaring Thunder
Indomitable Champion Utility 26: Epic Tenacity
Paladin Attack 27: Stunning Smite
Fighter Attack 29: Force the Battle
Indomitable Champion Utility 30: Unmatched Defense
FEATS
Level 1: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 2: Blessed Strength
Level 4: Mighty Challenge
Level 6: Hybrid Talent
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 10: Thirst for Battle
Level 11: Lashing Flail
Level 11: Flail Expertise replaces Devout Protector Expertise
Level 12: Daunting Challenge
Level 14: Superior Will
Level 16: Shield Specialization
Level 18: Honored Foe
Level 20: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 21: Rapid Combat Challenge
Level 21: Weakening Challenge replaces Mighty Challenge
Level 22: Divine Mastery
Level 22: Superior Initiative replaces Thirst for Battle
Level 24: Martial Resolve
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Epic Will
Level 30: Epic Fortitude?
ITEMS 14,625,000 gp expected, no rare items
Agile Godplate Armor +6
Heavy Shield
Feyslaughter Alhulak +6
Symbol of the Champion's Code +6
Helm of Ghostly Defense
Elemental Ward Cloak +6
Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier)
Strikebacks
Foe Binder Ring
Champion's Ring
Diamond Cincture (paragon tier)
Boots of Caiphon
Backlash Tattoo
Magnificent Tsor's Punishing Retort
Flickers of Faith (heroic tier)
The Fading One - Spirit Body
Quickening Waters
Kingslayer's Curse - Face Me, Cowards
Book of Five Truths (The Fourth Truth)
527,950 gp left
Though mostly standard options from each class, the combo should result in a very strong defender. I'll add the numbers and explain the mechanics in detail later, but feel free to ask if anything seems weird. Have I missed anything? Could another race/pp/weapon/whatever be better? All suggestions to improve the concept (Divine Combat Challenge) are welcome!
Edit History
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-Skipped Dragging Flail, got Honored Foe, Plate and Epic Will earlier, and Epic Fortitude added at lvl 30.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 1:28AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2008
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Reserved for whatever. Feel free to post!
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 6:11AM
#3
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Epic feat: Paladin's Truth to ignore resists and immunities of anything you have marked.
You might also consider Gladiator Champion if you want to be more of a black hole style defender. That would prevent the second creature from shifting completely away from you. It would result in fewer creatures trying to attack allies, and thus, fewer activations of your mark punishment though BUT would let you lock down multiple creatures at once.
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
One reach cheese'd threatening reach Spiked Chain shuts down any non-teleporting quarterback.
You're already refluffing, what not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 6:24AM
#4
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Another option is to go with a Dragonborn and Harlequin Style. Then you get +(Cha + 1) to your defenses whenever you use brash strike. In that case, you're leaning more towards being a striker, since your target is probably going to trigger your mark punishment much more often.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 6:57AM
#5
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Undeniable Challenge + Voidsoul Genasi is quite fun.
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 11:48AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2010
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Another option is to go with a Dragonborn and Harlequin Style. Then you get +(Cha + 1) to your defenses whenever you use brash strike. In that case, you're leaning more towards being a striker, since your target is probably going to trigger your mark punishment much more often.
This is what I prefer. It makes it really unattractive to hit you (stupid defenses) and really really unattractive to hit your party (DC/DS/Interrupts/Fighter arsewhoopins).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 1:57PM
#7
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I have a human Cavalier|Fighter that I have been running in LFR. I started him at level 1 and he's just made it to level 4. He uses a Falchion for his weapon. His at-wills are Strike of Hope, Ardent Strike, and Reaping Strike. If I know I am having an issue hitting something, I switch to Reaping Strike so I can at least deal some damage and keep the thing marked. Anything that I am not focusing on gets to deal with my Defender's Aura. If I hit with Ardent Strike and something provokes my mark, I get to deal 3+CHA-mod damage and make a MBA on it. I am still working on how I want to proceed. I am currently thinking to either MC with Master of Stories to get the Skald's Aura and PMC Bard to get a Bard at-will at Paragon, or I might go with Kensai for my paragon path, to help ensure that I hit. Either of those options might work alright for me. 
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 4:47PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2008
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@TheMalteseFalchion: Yeah, I did consider Paladin's Truth but skipped it because a) already have this vs. demons and elementals, and b) which feat would you trade for it? Regarding Gladiator Champion, I don't think I need the extra stickiness as I have DC/DS and Daunting Challenge. The name is fitting though - it's a champion! 
@Mellored: Fun and also deliciously evil! But you sort of need the whole Void package to make it worth the cost IMO. And I believe someone has already presented such a build...
@Black_Knight999 and Jugulator007: Dragonborn and Harlequin Style is good, especially since you can get another minor action mass-DS with DB. But it has one major problem: it requires your standard action to affect a single enemy. Therefore I believe it quickly loses power after mid/late heroic, unless you somehow manage to have most of your encounter and dailies as really good non-standard action attacks or find a way to Brash Strike as a non-standard reliably. Looking at the current Challenging Champion's most basic power order in epic, something like: 1. Call of Challenge 2. Warrior's Urging / Certain Justice (depending on encounter) 3. Helm of Ghostly Defense Interrupt on first hit (insubstantial) 4. Stunning Smite (+ DC Certain Justic target) 5. Castigating Strike 6. Encounter over Turns the Dragonborn HS + BS combo into a situationally useful/mop-up trick and thus not worth the cost as far as I can see. But maybe I'm missing something here, never played a HS Fighter. @Undrhil: Why are you using a 2-handed weapon instead of a shield?
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 5:16PM
#9
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A void paladin would probably work better then my void warden. Not that you need the full package, those 2 powers work great by themselves.
The only other suggestion i have is stealth.
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 5:56PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2008
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A void pally can probably be great, yes. But the aim of this build is to optimize the CC + DC/DS combo, which doesn't fit the void mechanics very well.
Why stealth?
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
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