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Sep 30, 2012 -- 12:45AM, upho wrote:

Sep 28, 2012 -- 9:54AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

I was thinking something along the lines of this:

This looks nice. Two questions:
Why Dreadnought? Seems to have quite a bit of overlap with Ironwrought and feats (making the U12 redundant, for example).
Why Shout of Condemnation instead of Knightly Intercession? Seems with 3 mass-DS encounter powers, Come and Get It and serious durability you'd gain more from a markless interrupt lasting DS power.

I think this build could be superior in heroic, the main problem I see in later levels would be the lower AC (and Ref to some extent). Even if some of it can be compensated through durability options, I don't think it'll be enough and/or too costly to bring it up to par, especially in epic. What's your take on this?

EDIT: There's also the problem of not being able to defend with your OA as effectively after heroic (compared to the current build in the OP).

The OA is immobilization against any marked target. Have a Feyslaughter weapon(which isn't item independent, but usually reasonably easy to obtain in most games) and basically, no marked target can escape you unless you haven't hit them in the turn. Jagged is the better choice unless you're worried about Teleporters, just to trigger the Resist 10.

The reason no Knightly Intercession is that I expect that the build is almost always having a use for the threat of an interrupt. That would likely change in Epic where the threat of encounter-long sanction is going to be amazing and with Rapid Combat Challenge multiple interrupts.

Finally, Dreadnought is all about negation of common effects. The defenses of the build won't be that bad, but negating 7-13 damage per attack most rounds at 11th which then goes up to 12-17 at 30th is about half as good as the dead revenant builds without being needing to do anything weird from a 'am I dead' standpoint.

Sep 28, 2012 -- 1:03PM, Jugulator007 wrote:

Gladiator theme, keep them close + weakening challenge = no one is going anywhere without lurker powers.

I'd prefer to keep this free from setting specific elements. Otherwise this is such a no-brainer in epic it almost goes without saying.

An argument could be made for that by looking at nearly every civilization and the fact that they have them.  It's not DS specific, it just happened to be published there.

Sep 30, 2012 -- 8:23AM, upho wrote:

Sep 30, 2012 -- 6:08AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

The OA is immobilization against any marked target. Have a Feyslaughter weapon(which isn't item independent, but usually reasonably easy to obtain in most games) and basically, no marked target can escape you unless you haven't hit them in the turn. Jagged is the better choice unless you're worried about Teleporters, just to trigger the Resist 10.

What I meant was that you "only" have one interrupt punishment (CC) in paragon, while the Challenging Champion has both an interrupt and an OA punishment from the CoO f11. Besides the extra punishment, a major indirect effect is the build can more safely use other interrupt powers. Even though the OA punishment won't trigger on shifts, it's unlikely to become a problem since the enemy in question is probably dazed and thus unable to attack if it shifts.

Weapon Master's Strike with a polearm means on a hit that if that target tries to shift, he provokes an OA. So if he wants to lock down multiple targets, he can do either of the following:
Mark all his targets, then swat an adjacent target with an MBA for immobilization. Ex: Move, Call of Challenge, then Charge. Target is immobilized on a hit.
DC one adjacent target, Weapon Master's Strike the one higher in initiative order.

I think something else to remember is that while you might have more interrupt options to help out, Divine Challenge is a minor action that's not the easiest to use once you hit Paragon. Do you really want to use DC over Call of Challenge in the 1st round? Or use Castigating Strike over Come And Get It? Or not use Certain Justice?

Sep 30, 2012 -- 6:08AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Finally, Dreadnought is all about negation of common effects. The defenses of the build won't be that bad, but negating 7-13 damage per attack most rounds at 11th which then goes up to 12-17 at 30th is about half as good as the dead revenant builds without being needing to do anything weird from a 'am I dead' standpoint.

You should negate at least 3-7 (or 7-14 at 30th) anyway through HF (3-7 THP), VR (RA 3-7) and Ironwrought (RA 4/6). What does Dreadnought add on top of this worth the opportunity cost of your PP?

And I wouldn't call your defenses bad, but your AC is at -2 and your Ref at -4, ie 49(47) AC and 43 Ref at 30th (with the same/comparable feats and items as the Challenging Champion). I certainly don't see this as problematic in terms of the extra damage taken, but you do run a greater risk of eating negative effects, notably the stuff that can disrupt your defender mechanics, cannot easily be negated and regularly comes with vs. AC attacks (like forced movement, prone etc). (Your AC typically runs a 40% greater risk of being hit by a same level standard enemy at 30th (35% hit probability instead of 25%).) Still, this is mostly nitpicks, all things considered.

Dreadnought means the build can end save-ends effects with a minor action and 10 hp. Yes, the build will eat more negative effects, but it can also get rid of them more easily. And while 17 hp might not be a huge difference from 13 at 30th(though I think it will still be very noticeable), it makes a much larger difference in paragon tier.