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Sep 26, 2012 -- 2:19PM, Larry_Hunsaker wrote:

Thanks Mellored. Is there a Diet version of you?

I wouldn't ask that. His diet version is probably revenant.

Sep 26, 2012 -- 12:39PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Thanks.

Problem with Baladin is that you don't ramp up Honored Foe. Honored Foe of 6-7 temps+DR 5 against marked targets+Weakening Challenge is going to create a default catch-22 problem that's quite annoying. Draconic Sanction+Castigating Strike+Call of Challenge+DC ought to wreak havoc against enemy tactics.

Yes, losing HF is one issue with the Baladin route, another perhaps equally important is getting the stats for the better CC-related feats (such as the pole or flail package). And strong marks don't go as well with a 2-handed setup, especially not without Wis as a good secondary and a decent Con. So an otherwise "cheaper" 2-handed boost like PI is out of the question. I whipped up a few Harlequin Baladin versions but none were on par with the Challenging Champion IMO, notably suffering vs. multiple foes and from having two attack stats (thus having weaker CC punishments or less accuracy, for example). Their "unhittable" HS + BS defenses would still make them superior vs. solos, but their mostly non-standard encounter and dailies aren't good enough to compensate for their weaknesses otherwise, despite having access to some great Cha-based options. 

Sep 26, 2012 -- 12:39PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

What I'd look at is a Dragonborn with:
18 Str/13 Con/14 Wis/16 Cha where you level Str/Wis. This has some interesting effects:
If you get expertise at 1st, you have the same to-hit chance with Valorous Strike that the Inexhaustible Dragon Sovereign does until 8th. By the time your miss chance with Ironwrought is significant enough in comparison, you qualify for the upgrade to Castigating Strike.
Hybrid Talent for Two-Handed Weapon opens up Pinning Immobilization - hit a marked someone with an MBA and kill their round.
And Draconic Sanction is a nice mass-sanction to use after Come And Get It

Okay, so the relative damage of your DC/Sanction isn't going to be so hot, particularly in Epic. But it isn't that bad. In Heroic, it is more than close enough. In Epic, it is all about the catch-22 up above, particularly in the context that a CC means immobilization.

That's certainly a nifty stat/power combo for a Dragonborn build, but how would you bring the defenses up to par? I mean, this build could actually be in even greater need of superior defensive abilities, considering it's perhaps even stickier while its MBA doesn't apply any attack penalties. Regardless, if the Divine Combat Challenge concept deserves turning this thread to a short build guide, I believe it should include a Dragonborn version simply because of the extra mass-DS if nothing else.

And I don't think DC/DS damage should be much of an issue for a Fightadin (Pallighter?) after heroic, since you should be able to mostly rely on whatever other punishment shenanigans (pimped out CC etc) you have from early paragon and onwards. And in epic, the DC/DS punishment that matters is WC, regardless of what flavor of true/hybrid pally you are (with the possible exception of a Morninglord Baladin/HOrc). 

Sep 26, 2012 -- 2:05PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Sep 26, 2012 -- 1:02PM, Metafictional wrote:

I tried to do this myself with a Half-Orc for Blessed Strength (and Mighty Challenge on top of that) so I could pretty much ignore Charisma.  I went with 16 starting Con and MC Warlock to get Avernian Knight, although I later started wishing I'd gotten more Wisdom.

The problem I kept running into was mostly the same as with my Hammer Knight- I was simpy too sticky, and the DM would never trigger my punishment, so I ended up spending more and more resources on simply surviving the beatdown, though... 

 

One of the key aspects of a Straladin is that they have access to Honored Foe/Virtuous Recovery, both feats which basically simulate unerrata'd Battlerager by themselves. Throw in Lay on Hands and a high Wisdom and a Straladin can almost ignore any kind of damage.
Straladins don't really do that because they're not worried about ignoring damage, they're worried about being relevant because they lack control and a strong mark. Hybrid Fighters have the strong mark and pinning challenge is ridiculously nasty control, but they need some auto-marking capabilities and survivability if they go two-handed instead of one... 

It's a bit annoying the hybrids can't ever access the stellar HF+VR+LOH combo that typically would help them much more than true Straladins. But yeah, +Wis still usually beats +Con for a primary defender hybrid's survivability, despite the lack of LOH. 

BTW, must say I like the "Hell's Crusader" flavor of your build, Metafictional. Hmm... Speaking of "Hells", seems he's just one big growling mount from becoming the perfect 4e outlaw biker!