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8 months ago ::
Sep 23, 2012 - 11:15PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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In both the new playtest packet and the previous one, alot of spells use what I call the HP threshold mechanic. Example spells include Bane, Charm Person, Command, Ghoul Touch, Hold Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, and so on. These spells either won't work at all on targets with more than a certain maximum hit point total, don't allow a saving throw to targets with fewer hit points than that threshold, or have reduced effects against creatures with hp maximums above the threshold. This is a terrible game mechanic and I strongly urge the designers to stop using it. Here's just a few of the reasons why this mechanic is bad for the game: * It forces players to guess at a monster's maximum hit point totals (or worse, resort to using metagaming or peeking in the monster manual). Guessing wrong and attempting to use the spell on a creature with too many hit points usually means you waste the spell with little or no effect. That's frustrating and not fun at all, and not for any good reason. At least when a creature makes its save, you knew there was a chance that you might have accomplished something, so you don't feel like a complete idiot for wasting your turn and prepared spell for nothing.
* Many of these effects don't even allow a saving throw, even though the conditions or penalties they inflict can be quite severe. A good example of this is Charm Person, which offers no saving throw if your hit point maximum is less than 25. Another example is Command, which offers no saving throw if the target's hp max is less than 30. This isn't even save-or-suck. It's worse! It's "have enough maximum hit points or suck," without a saving throw or any other way to resist at all.
* As characters increase in level, these spells eventually become worthless, since the threats the PCs will be typically fighting will have maximum hp totals above the limits of these spells. Why should some 1st level spells, like Grease, remain useful forever, while spells like Charm Person eventually become useless? This isn't the first edition of the game to have this problem. We saw the same problem with spells like Sleep in 3.x, which was overpowered at levels 1-5 but then became useless later because it couldn't affect creatures with more than 5 Hit Dice. The one extreme does NOT balance the other. It is NOT okay for a spell to be overpowered at low levels or any level. Making it useless at higher levels does NOT balance it out, any more than wizards being frail weaklings at low levels was balanced by them becoming godlike at high levels in past editions. Bounded accuracy helps somewhat to alleviate this issue, but it only delays the inevitable. Monsters may stay releveant longer, but they don't remain relevant forever.
* It punishes some classes more than others. Since your hit points are determined by your class, the result is that wizards end up being more susceptible to these spells than fighters are, and so on. That's ridiculous. At least Hit Die limits treat all classes fairly (not that I'm a big fan of that mechanic either).
*[EDIT] This mechanic is contrary to bounded accuracy. One of the design goals of this edition is that players and monsters don't get large bonuses to stats, attack rolls, saves, AC, etc. just because they're higher level. This gives lower level characters a chance against higher level creatures, but also allows lower level monsters to remain somewhat relevant threats against higher level characters. But there is one stat that does still greatly inflate with level - hit points. And by tying that to these spells, they alone are stuck with the old level paradigm, even though it clashes with the rest of the system.
This mechanic is awful and needs to go. Any spell, ANY spell, that debilitates a character in any way needs to have either an attack roll or saving throw, as appropriate. It's simply not okay to have such spells automatically succeed or fail. If a spell like Sleep is just too powerful as a 1st level spell without a hp limit, well, then make it a higher level spell! Sleep in particular has always been problematic, being effectively a low level save-or-die. Maybe it's just not appropriate for a 1st level spell. Maybe it never has been.
There are also many other, far better ways of balancing these types of spells. Players could be given multiple ways to break out of their effects, not the least of which should be a saving throw every turn in combat to shrug off a nasty effect. Spells like Charm and Suggestion can have reasonable limits on what they can make people do (like not being able to make them commit suicide or attack their allies) so that they aren't effectively save-or-lose. There's even the possibility of giving higher level beings a bonus on their saving throws rather than granting them outright immunity. There are plenty of other options. Almost anything is better than the hp threshold mechanic they're using now to "balance" these spells.
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 12:00AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2010
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Totally agree with that.
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 12:02AM
#3
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Though I'm usually one to play devil's advocate, in this case I agree with you 100%. I hated the HP threashold mechanic even back when it was called Power Word (insert effect here).
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 12:10AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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I agree. I understand where it came from. But that is not enough to justify it.
Where it came from (as I see it): 1) Some spells in the past had an arbitrary cap on what they could affect. Most of these were based on level, although a few (power word spells) were based on hit ponts. 2) They had a somewhat innovative idea for spells in 5E which they abandoned. The idea was that one way of reducing the swinginess of save or suck spells was to give them current hit point thresholds. If you wanted to use the spell on a powerful monsters you had to first wear it down to make it vulnerable. This appears to have been abandoned. 3) It is, in some cases, an attempt to balance the wizard as they go up in level. If a spell is 'all or nothing' - and it continues to work at high level, you end up with a spell that - despite being low level can take out a high level creature. That was not a problem in the days of scaling damage - because it serves the same purpose as scaling damage - it makes the low level spell relevant at high level. But scaling damage is part of the quadratic wizard problem and appears to be going away - and thus low level spells with non-damage effects on high level creatures are now problematic - and hit point thresholds are a way to balance them.
However - #1 was always one of the less logical parts of the AD&D magic system (and that is saying something...) and #2 they have dropped as a factor. The question is: IF so, where does that leave #3? Is the mechanic an adequate way of balancing those spells?
In my opinion -Probably not. It forces the players to think in terms of an abstract game mechanic - and worse yet, one they cannot accurately evaluate (How many hit points does that creature have?)
But worse yet, imho, it fall prey to one of the flaws of the current hit point system: As long as ConMod is added to the hit point total - hit points are not an accurate measure of creature power. It is a measure of the creatures ability to withstand damage, yes. But that is it.
The range of possible hit points both between classes (d4s or d6s versus up to d12s for dwarf fighters) and betwrrm low and high Con (25 point swing possible from 8 Con to 18 con) at L5 means that characters of the same level may have two, three, even four times as many hit points as another of the same level. The range of hit points between the characters and the monsters (especially if part of the fix to the monsters 'being crushed' is to raise their hit points) means that a spell that is balanced to affect a PC will be likely be improperly balanced against a monster (or vice versa).
Hit Points are just one measure of a creature's power and a particularly crude one at that. It is not a good mechanic upon which to hang multple spells.
If these mechanics were written so that creatures above some cap had advantage on the save - at least that would remove the absolute dependence upon the mechanic and make it slilghtly better. If these mechanics were based on level or hit dice (not hit points) it would still be metagamey and dependant upon something that the characters could not perceive and force the characters to guess what would work when - but it would at least avoid some of the flaws of hit points (the only advantage to hit points is that they drop and thus you can use current hit points as a mechanic. If you dump that approach, hit points as a metric should be dumped as well).
But what I think is the best approach (or at least a better approach) is this:
Stop basing saves on the primary ability score of the caster. If you want that to matter - put it back into the damage figure. Base saves on the level of the spell. A high level creatures shouldn't be unaffected or less affected by a low level spell because of some arbitrary hit point cap. It should just have a really good save because it is a low level spell.
This seems to satisfy the balance requirement (the low level spells are not very effective against the high level creatures) without the players having to judge someaarbitary cap - and the general idea of creatures saving - and some saving more often than others - has always been part of the game.
Carl
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 12:33AM
#5
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Unless I'm mistaken, saves based on spell level was the approach done with 13th Age (except given how it uses the 4E unified attack system, it's static bonus to hit unless you use a higher spell slot level). In short, the idea's pretty solid
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 1:35AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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The threshold allows everyone to participate in weakening an adversary (before the culmenating strike.) hence makes the save or die effect of these absolutist spell to become a team accomplishment .... In 4e terms a bloodied condition might be an example of a good target threshold its a detectable state and thus not a guessing game and its porportionate to the adversary and doesnt quit being relevant.
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 1:39AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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The threshold allows everyone to participate in weakening an adversary (before the culmenating strike.) hence makes the save or die effect of these absolutist spell to become a team accomplishment .... In 4e terms a bloodied condition might be an example of a good target threshold its a detectable state and thus not a guessing game and its porportionate to the adversary and doesnt quit being relevant.
Except they dumped the idea of using current hit points and in most cases now are using max hit points as the threshold.
As I said - that was the one advantage of using hit points - you could use current hit ponts. But then they abandoned that idea.
The only spell still using current hit points is sleep. All other spells with a hit point cap use the hit point maximum.
Carl
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 1:46AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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The threshold allows everyone to participate in weakening an adversary (before the culmenating strike.) hence makes the save or die effect of these absolutist spell to become a team accomplishment .... In 4e terms a bloodied condition might be an example of a good target threshold its a detectable state and thus not a guessing game and its porportionate to the adversary and doesnt quit being relevant.
Except they dumped the idea of using current hit points and in most cases now are using max hit points as the threshold.
As I said - that was the one advantage of using hit points - you could use current hit ponts. But then they abandoned that idea.
The only spell still using current hit points is sleep. All other spells with a hit point cap use the hit point maximum.
Carl
And it doesnt mean that was a great idea.
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 1:54AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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The threshold allows everyone to participate in weakening an adversary (before the culmenating strike.) hence makes the save or die effect of these absolutist spell to become a team accomplishment .... In 4e terms a bloodied condition might be an example of a good target threshold its a detectable state and thus not a guessing game and its porportionate to the adversary and doesnt quit being relevant.
Except they dumped the idea of using current hit points and in most cases now are using max hit points as the threshold.
As I said - that was the one advantage of using hit points - you could use current hit ponts. But then they abandoned that idea.
The only spell still using current hit points is sleep. All other spells with a hit point cap use the hit point maximum.
Carl
And it doesnt mean that was a great idea.
Granted - my point was that at least using current hit points gave the mechanic a justification. It remained badly flawed - but at least it served a purpose. But if it doesn't use current hit ponts, there is no longer any justification for using the mechanic.
Carl
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8 months ago ::
Sep 24, 2012 - 2:20AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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I don't fully understand why they ditched the idea of using current hp, really, but even if you use current hp instead of max hp you can get to a place where you're metagaming 'cause everyone's doing the math and seeing how many more hits before they can take something out. I've hated effects that depended on hit dice/hit points from day 1. Power Word spells are friggin cool and have tons of flavour but nobody uses them because it's so restrictive and a lower level spell that's scaled up with your high level status will take out a group of weenies without using your high level spell slots. Basically it's just a bad idea. What I don't mind are spells that only affect targets of equal HD or less than the character with breaking points, ie "deals 10d6 damage, if target is 5 HD less it deals 20d6, if target is 10 HD less it kills." There are conventions in play that tell a player roughly whether they've got more HD or not; in the past some skills have allowed you to have a guess at how many HD a creature has (usually in the context of sizing up another PC race guy with a class). The spell should always do something, even if it doesn't do much past a certain point. But yes current sitrep = bad. Please fix 
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