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Switch to Forum Live View Legends & Lore: Playtest Update
10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 9:36PM #1
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,979
Legends & Lore 
Playtest Update

By Mike Mearls

In August, we released a pair of updates to the playtest packet. The first one revised the core classes and made some modifications to the core system. The second update, released to coincide with Gen Con, unleashed the sorcerer and warlock upon the world. Over 85,000 people have taken part in the playtest, and it’s great to have so many people looking at the game. We’re thrilled at the continuing interest in the playtest. So, how are we doing?

Talk about this column here.

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Yan
Montréal, Canada
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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 9:39PM #2
Hocus-Smokus
Date Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 7,214
"Ease of DMing: This is an area where we saw some regression. It’s not completely clear what’s going on, but I suspect that with the new monsters, the rules for opportunity attacks, and the opportunity to create adventures, the game feels like a little too much to manage at the table. A majority of DMs felt that the game ran well, but enough people felt that it was too complex that we’re examining things across the aboard."

This makes me sad.
I just don't get it. I don't see the "complexity" anywhere.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 9:40PM #3
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,752
Oh good.  Moving away from discrete subsystems for each class is a good thing.
And, um, what's so bad about Turn Undead as a spell?
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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 9:41PM #4
CarlT
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2009
Posts: 2,881
Hmm - I agreed for the most part with his assessment of where the improvements and problems were - but on the whole I was less happy, not more happy.   I guess it is a matter of weighting the importance of those improvements and problems.


Now we just need to see what the solutions they come up with for the problems are.

(And the real problem with hit points isn't that they are too low.  It is that the gap between the lowest and the highest becomes too extreme, especially if hit point caps are used in spells, when ConMod is added to hit points.)


Carl
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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 9:43PM #5
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,752

Sep 23, 2012 -- 9:41PM, CarlT wrote:

(And the real problem with hit points isn't that they are too low.  It is that the gap between the lowest and the highest becomes too extreme, especially if hit point caps are used in spells, when ConMod is added to hit points.)


Moving Rogue up to d8 and Wizard to d6 was a great idea.  I wonder why it has apparently been abandoned.

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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 9:57PM #6
DragonGuardian
Date Joined: Jul 2, 2008
Posts: 355
Who were these people complaining that Eldritch Blast is overpowered, Wizards have too little hit die and that the game is too complex to DM? 
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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 10:03PM #7
mexrage
Date Joined: Nov 30, 2010
Posts: 1,509
"...I’d like to create a simple, easy, scalable mechanic that tackles these issues..."

 Sigh...you did...it's called healing surges and surge value...we have been using for the last 4-5 years, it works extremly well...Did Mearls hitted his head and had amnesia and forgot the last 6 years of his career? 
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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 10:06PM #8
FallingIcicle
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 1,055

There is one final issue to touch on that I think does a good job of showcasing how we work with playtest feedback: Players consistently feel that their characters don’t have enough hit points. The feedback about number of hit points was overwhelmingly clear for the wizard.

Except that people are happier with the game than before.

And people consistently rated the monsters as being too weak.

It would be easy to simply raise hit points if monsters were rated as being too powerful and people were less happy with the game, but you don’t always have the luxury of a giant, glowing arrow pointing out your next move. Something more subtle and interesting is going on here.

In the case of hit points, we aren’t going to do anything other than give the wizard a boost (the wizard far and away came up the most in the data and in comments). Personally, I think the issue relates more to how much healing the characters have, how dangerous the monsters feel, and the overall level of tension in the game.

The real trick to figuring this situation out also relies on how the game plays. Of course players want more hit points. More hit points means less risk of a character’s death. On the other hand, risk is what drives excitement in the game. Some of the most memorable moments in D&D come about when you clutch that last hit point and pull off a brilliant idea or a ridiculous set of rolls to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.




This is the only part of the article that really struck a nerve with me. Even though he admits that people overwhelmingly had a problem with the low number of hit points, he assumes that because people liked this packet more than the last, that he should just ignore that feedback, except in the case of the wizard.

I am hoping that Mr. Mearls is reading this thread, because I just want to make something clear. Yes, I liked this packet *overall* more than the last, but that doesn't mean I liked *everything.* And I most certainly did NOT like the reduction in starting hit points. Single digit hp for starting characters is something I have loathed in every edition of the game prior to 4th, and the result was that I never wanted to play the game at any level before 3rd. I'm certainly not alone in this. I know of many people who felt the same way. The game should be fun and playable at all levels. If the first few levels of the game are something that alot of people don't want to play, then something is seriously wrong.

The last paragraph seemed like he was saying players greedily want more hit points and just don't appreciate the need for danger and excitement for the game to be fun. That comment just struck me as really condescending, even though I'm sure wasn't intended that way. Believe me, I want there to be danger and excitement and the possibility of character death to be in the game. But there's a big difference between danger and having so few hit points that your character can easily die in one hit!

This is something that has always bothered me about D&D. Because of the way hit points scale, low levels are far, far more dangerous to characters than high levels of play are, even though the players are fighting much more powerful threats. Why should that be the case? I'd much rather see a game where a 1st level character fighting a 1st level threat is about equally in danger as a 20th level character fighting a 20th level threat. But that just isn't the way it is in 5e. A high level character can survive several blows even from an epic monster. A 1st level character is lucky to even survive one hit from an orc. That is just NOT FUN.

So please, Mr. Mearls. Take some time to reconsider this. 

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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 10:07PM #9
DragonGuardian
Date Joined: Jul 2, 2008
Posts: 355

Sep 23, 2012 -- 10:03PM, mexrage wrote:

"...I’d like to create a simple, easy, scalable mechanic that tackles these issues..."

 Sigh...you did...it's called healing surges and surge value...we have been using for the last 4-5 years, it works extremly well...Did Mearls hitted his head and had amnesia and forgot the last 6 years of his career? 




Healing Surges had it's problems too. I'm currently playing with a bard that has 17 healing surges a day. Last time he jumped down a 50 ft drop because he knew he could just use a healing surge or two and it wouldn't matter.

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10 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 10:08PM #10
Silver_Blaze
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 1,343
Looks like they are acknowledging their idea that the Wizard MUST be Vancian was a giant mistake.  Perhaps through the Tradition system they can make an AEDU Wizard, a Spell Point Wizard, and a full Vancian Wizard.     
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
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