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7 months ago ::
Oct 28, 2012 - 11:24PM
#571
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2012
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I later amended my statement to be a full blown ghestalt. I want to play a wizard, but with all of the class features of a fighter. And to specifify, I want the skill points of the wizard, and the HD of a fighter. I had to mention those because those were exclusive traits. But everything else, I want it all, because my character concept is someone who is really talented and melds the two disciplines in a unique way. See how silly that is?
Actually, that's fully possible in 2E. You are just going to have a stupid slow xp table.
So the game is penalizing me for my character concept. Players should not be penalized for their character concepts, we should have more character concepts that don't get discriminated against by stupid mechanics like that. See where egalitarianism leads?
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7 months ago ::
Oct 28, 2012 - 11:29PM
#572
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2003
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I later amended my statement to be a full blown ghestalt. I want to play a wizard, but with all of the class features of a fighter. And to specifify, I want the skill points of the wizard, and the HD of a fighter. I had to mention those because those were exclusive traits. But everything else, I want it all, because my character concept is someone who is really talented and melds the two disciplines in a unique way. See how silly that is?
Actually, that's fully possible in 2E. You are just going to have a stupid slow xp table.
So the game is penalizing me for my character concept. Players should not be penalized for their character concepts, we should have more character concepts that don't get discriminated against by stupid mechanics like that. See where egalitarianism leads?
He's refering to 2e multiclassing (which only non-humans could do), which was not to be confused with dual-classing (which only humans could do).
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7 months ago ::
Oct 28, 2012 - 11:31PM
#573
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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I later amended my statement to be a full blown ghestalt. I want to play a wizard, but with all of the class features of a fighter. And to specifify, I want the skill points of the wizard, and the HD of a fighter. I had to mention those because those were exclusive traits. But everything else, I want it all, because my character concept is someone who is really talented and melds the two disciplines in a unique way. See how silly that is?
Actually, that's fully possible in 2E. You are just going to have a stupid slow xp table.
So the game is penalizing me for my character concept. Players should not be penalized for their character concepts, we should have more character concepts that don't get discriminated against by stupid mechanics like that. See where egalitarianism leads?
The custom class tables punish you just for looking at them.
He's refering to 2e multiclassing (which only non-humans could do), which was not to be confused with dual-classing (which only humans could do).
No, 2E has a fully functional Custom Class system. It just heavily favors stock classes, and fully admits so:
You can't reconstruct the existing character classes using this method. The standard classes give players advantages over custom-designed classes. Standard class characters advance in levels more quickly and, generally, have better abilities than custom-designed characters.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 28, 2012 - 11:40PM
#574
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2012
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See, I think they should either have classes that are largely fixed, or do away with classes entirely and allow us a set number of x and y and z type options to add to an overall kit. Personally, I'm more for the former in the case of D&D.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:48PM
#575
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2005
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Just wanted to pop in and say there is no way I have time to participate in this thread. Since I last checked, there were 65+ new posts. I don't have the time to devote to the thread to actually respond to people. So I guess to end it, "I was wrong, alignment is totally the best, and works perfectly in every instance, anyone who likes it is dumb".
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 2:09PM
#576
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Just wanted to pop in and say there is no way I have time to participate in this thread. Since I last checked, there were 65+ new posts. I don't have the time to devote to the thread to actually respond to people.
I haven't looked in here since 400-some-odd posts ago. Really needn't have bothered but I had nothing better to do just now.
Old School: It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.
My 1E Project:
http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/Building%20D&D/buildingdnd.htm
"Who says I can't?"
"The man in the funny hat..."
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7 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 4:34PM
#577
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2012
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Krusk, I'm actually really sad to hear you say that. I would rather an honest disagreement than an honest agreement. Aside from that, I don't blame you in the slightest for having better things to do than participate in a derailing morality/alignment discussion on an internet forum. I would have been posting a lot more in the last 24 hours, but life happened.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:29PM
#578
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Name one class that would do worse without alignment mechanics.
Clerics.
Clerics use the allignment mechanic to define their beliefs, either the Deity they worship or the cause they worship. Now because D&D understandably only needs to few sentences to explain it's deities, alignment becomes a very powerful tool, placing the deities in an alignment spectrum goes along way to summing up their religion.
I want to be a Cleric promoting PEace and harmony, fellowship and strict disiplined moral values, so I choose to be LG, worship Pelor and I choose The Good and Healing Domains, I turn Undead and Spontaneously cast Heals.
I want to be a Cleric that teaches Joy and fertility, Life is good and the pursuit of hapiness is all that matters, I am CN and Worship The laughing Rogue with the Luck and Trickery Domains
I want to be a Holy Crusader, I follow Heronious, LG with the War Domain (Gain Longsword Sword Proficency and Weapon Focus Longsword) and the Good Domain.
As a Cleric I teach the world is ending and we must repent, Death is the way of Life, I worship Nerull and am True Neutral, My Domains are Death and Trickery, I Rebuke Undead and Spontaneously cast Inflict Spells.
In addition Clerics cannot cast spells of the opposing alignement, which means these clerics all have different restrictions there to.
The Allignment system gives this class many, many options.
I don't see how any of that requires alignment mechanics.
What exactly would be different if the alignment mechanics were removed, but I decided to follow the alignment in your examples and restricted myself from casting spells of the opposite alignment of my own choice? What exactly changes?
Well the restrictions wouldn't be there without the alignment mechanics, those mechanics are what are used to make those restrictions. Reverse engineer those above differences and you have Clerics that are only allowed to choose from certain Domains and Spells (as well as turn/rebuke, spontaneous cast heal/inflict) depending upon their allignment choices.
It's what stops the "Lawful Good" Cleric above from choosing to Rebuke Undead, Spontaneously Cast Inflict and have both the Good and the Evil Domains.
It is also the cost that a Cleric pays to get certain abilities. The N Cleric that made choices to be able to Rebuke Undead and Spontaneous Cast Inflict spells is restricted from certain Domains as a result, it a balancing act of choosing to be more offensive rather then the Cleric who chose the Good/Healing Domains.
And it relies heavily on the Alignment mechanics that it was designed for.
Domains represent Themed spells and abilities and are inherently based upon the allignment/diety choices of the Cleric. If You wish to scratch that theme, then you may as well dump Domains entirely and just give the Clerics an extra bonus spell per level as generic cookie cutter characters.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 4:11PM
#579
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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Like Vikings. They are pretty much THE real life Barbarians, but they still had their sets of customs and traditions. Are they Chaotic now?
And LAWS.
In fact "viking" is a verb - the Norse, mostly, with a bunch of Danes and a few Swedes mixed in, sent troublesome surplus young men off to go a-viking in someone else's land rather than have them breaking the laws and creating difficulties at home. Some got killed and made no further trouble, some came home wealthy enough to pay off those they had wronged, some grew up during their adventures - and at the very least they were out of their lord's hair for a while.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 5:02PM
#580
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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Not a reason to include "If you don't act how your DM thinks you are supposed to act you get stuff taken away from you" rules. Those are stupid.
Yeah... I probably can't add anything more to this thread that isn't just a vague rewording of that sentence.
Ditto. That's alignment in a nutshell.
No, that's alignment *mechanics* in a nutshell.
Alignment by itself is one way of encouraging (but not requiring) players to think about how their character looks at moral and philosophical issues. That's useful. The 3E alignment system happens to be my favorite tool, out of all I've seen in a bunch of roleplaying games, for that purpose. I use it frequently, including outside of RPGs (assuming that creating a fictional story is not considered an RPG) but I also frequently don't bother with those issues.
But alignment *mechanics*, for some classes and powers, *require* the players - and DM - to think about these issues, and for the players to come to specific conclusions (on behalf of their characters, not necessarily for themselves) in order to play certain broad archetypes. Even worse, those aren't specific conclusions printed in the books, they are the specific conclusions that the DM thinks the players should have come to based on the situation at hand, the non-specific guidelines in the books, and the DM's past experience with ethical systems real or imaginary.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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