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9 months ago  ::  Sep 24, 2012 - 7:43PM #61
Tallius
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2008
Posts: 59

A lot of people have commented that levelling up allows for the sense of growth and accomplishment. They have also mentioned that more options can be fun; in that players have more room to do what they do best. They have been expressed succinctly and elegantly, so I wont belabour these points.

What I'm having some trouble with is OP's assumption that more options means more work for the DM. Hopefully what follows will be a reasoned arguement against this, using 4e as a baseline as 4e is relatively complex mechanically.

I run a 4e campaign and find the number of options available to players overwhelming. So much so that I have told the players that they are responsible for their characters. As long as their characters are legal as per the character builder, that is where my involvment in the mechanics of their character ends.

My responsibility is to craft a story and deliver challenges to the players. I also act as an arbiter. Just because my player has had to spend 45 minutes agonising whether to pick power X vs power Y, does not mean that my work has increased by any amount.

In combat, my responsibility is simply to give the players a spicier version of "Monster attacks, gets 25. Does that hit your AC" - "Yes" - "Ok it does 15 damage" - "I am bloodied". The players responsibility is to say "I attack monster with power #9. I roll 25." - "That hits" - "I deal 19 damage" - "The monster is bloodied". It is also their responsibility to give truthful and accurate values.

My work has not increased just because they had 8 other powers to choose from. They player's has but he or she is greatful for the choice to create the character that they wish to play. But that's not the OPs point; his point is that it is an increase in the work of the DM and that alienates them from the game.

Outside of combat, my responsibility is to deliver a compelling story that inspires and drives my players. Complex tactical rules do not hinder this. Nor do increased player options and their ability to progress. In fact, it actually makes it easier to produce a sense of growth and achievement that comes with a compelling story.

My work does increase from having to remember Marks etc, as well as conditions like bloodied and that I shouldn't try shift monsters when they are next to the Paladin or what have you. Next reduces this considerably and I personally hope that all of these things are gone forever. I hate the feeling when something has slipped my mind and a player has an "Aha! Gotcha" moment when their one obscure power comes into play to thwart my plans. Presently, none of this is in Next.

So where is this additional work for the DM in Next?

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9 months ago  ::  Sep 24, 2012 - 7:54PM #62
Traygin
Date Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 36

It always amazes me that when a new version of D&D comes out the ones that really don’t like the changes, talk about quitting D&D as if it is dead. If you do not like what 5E may become play 4E, play 3.5,  play 3.0, darn play 1E if you like. Just like the RPG Traveller, there are many rule sets to play.

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9 months ago  ::  Sep 24, 2012 - 10:56PM #63
Shasarak
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2007
Posts: 4,105

Sep 24, 2012 -- 5:01PM, Garthanos wrote:

Xena lacks a sense of progression for her character... but Gabriel goes from a lazylord style clever bard to a full combatant bard multiclassed skirmishing ranger.  The nature of her contributions to the story change over time - but maybe the measure of them didnt need to change much.




I was always disappointed that Xena never got as powerful as Lucy Lawless.

Did not have a chance to level up enough, I guess.

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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion

"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk


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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 24, 2012 - 10:57PM #64
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 17,768

Sep 24, 2012 -- 10:56PM, Shasarak wrote:

Sep 24, 2012 -- 5:01PM, Garthanos wrote:

Xena lacks a sense of progression for her character... but Gabriel goes from a lazylord style clever bard to a full combatant bard multiclassed skirmishing ranger.  The nature of her contributions to the story change over time - but maybe the measure of them didnt need to change much.




I was always disappointed that Xena never got as powerful as Lucy Lawless.

Did not have a chance to level up enough, I guess.




Lucy got chops.

Improvisation in 4e: Improv. Attacks(by wrecan) - Fave 4E Improvisations

The Non-combatant Adventurer

Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness

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Creative Character Collection - Featuring:The Faerie Master - Snow White - Joxer - Ironman - Elric - Bloodwright

By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one

"You have to explicitly give non-casters permission to do awesome, where as with magic it is just assumed they can." -Garthanos

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9 months ago  ::  Sep 24, 2012 - 11:14PM #65
CarlT
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2009
Posts: 2,878

Sep 24, 2012 -- 10:56PM, Shasarak wrote:

Sep 24, 2012 -- 5:01PM, Garthanos wrote:

Xena lacks a sense of progression for her character... but Gabriel goes from a lazylord style clever bard to a full combatant bard multiclassed skirmishing ranger.  The nature of her contributions to the story change over time - but maybe the measure of them didnt need to change much.




I was always disappointed that Xena never got as powerful as Lucy Lawless.

Did not have a chance to level up enough, I guess.




"But Xena can't fly."  "I told you, I'm not Xena.  I'm Lucy Lawless"


Commentary on the OPs suggestion to redesign D&D to remove advancement: imgs.xkcd.com/comics/think_logically.png




Carl

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9 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 1:48AM #66
CondorDMaDnD2ed
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2010
Posts: 171
TSR "Real" D&D never died(Still played and ran by "real" dungeon masters), though wotc's game that uses the title D&D died long ago, no matter how much they try to keep it up it is dead "SAGA".

They create systems no real DMs/GMS will run, leaving players to run their games for other players, it be like me calling my friend to come over and then handing them a ps cd and asking them to spin it on their finger while I try to play the game.
http://advanceddnd2edrevamp.proboards.com/
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 1:58AM #67
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,536
What?
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 2:00AM #68
Samrin
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 6,882

Sep 25, 2012 -- 1:48AM, CondorDMaDnD2ed wrote:

TSR "Real" D&D never died(Still played and ran by "real" dungeon masters), though wotc's game that uses the title D&D died long ago, no matter how much they try to keep it up it is dead "SAGA".

They create systems no real DMs/GMS will run, leaving players to run their games for other players, it be like me calling my friend to come over and then handing them a ps cd and asking them to spin it on their finger while I try to play the game.




Words... words.... none that matter. 


Nothing to see here folks. Just a pile of nonsense. 

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9 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 2:38AM #69
OrwellianHaggis
Date Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 392

Sep 25, 2012 -- 1:48AM, CondorDMaDnD2ed wrote:

TSR "Real" D&D never died(Still played and ran by "real" dungeon masters), though wotc's game that uses the title D&D died long ago, no matter how much they try to keep it up it is dead "SAGA".

They create systems no real DMs/GMS will run, leaving players to run their games for other players, it be like me calling my friend to come over and then handing them a ps cd and asking them to spin it on their finger while I try to play the game.




Condor there have been a number of threads asking you not to be abusive to other players... even mild insults like that should be kept at bay.

There are plenty of REAL DMs who play games such as 4e and while I can understand your argument, your going at it from an awful standpoint. Its different strokes for different people, many people still do enjoy DMing, unfortunately its not as a big of a draw as it once was.

But D&D lives, despite the best shots of trolls and idiots, its just a little old and tired. 

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9 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 4:02AM #70
OrwellianHaggis
Date Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 392
I didn't insult you and im sorry if you see it that way, just please calm down, harassing people and causing work for the admins just brings the forum down. I was saying D&D the brand is old and tired... and sorry but yes I do see you as a troll, your posts are all full of rage, It makes others act up.

When have I been two faced on here
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