To me, the key is the Fighter being able to take an action that is the equal of the best spell the Wizard can dish out. 4E gave me that, and 5E's CS dice do not.
I'm really not sure how you can say that. Not only are we in a playtest where things are changing rapidly, but we haven't even seen the preliminary 20th level wizard and fighter abilities yet. Did you discover the truth about it by reading the future in entrails and tea leaves? If so, let us know your divining methods and all the facts about the future of 5e that they revealed to you.
I say that because what the Fighter can do in 5E they can do every single turn, while magic is a limited resource. By definition, the Wizard MUST be able to do more in a single action than the Fighter. Under the current system, if the Fighter were able to match the Wizard's best, the game would be horrifically unbalanced in the Fighter's favor. In any case, as a Fighter player, I want the ability to be able to do more than the same crap I do every turn, to dig deep and put some stank on it in dramatic situations. Like, for example, encounter and daily powers. They don't have to be exactly like 4E, but it needs to be something more than the same stuff you do every turn.
I am chosing to be an optimist I can see several ways that CS dice are just a starting point.
While I'm in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode and see CS as nothing more than giving the Fighter a few at-wills.
I want something on the level of spells, 4E powers, or Tome of Battle stuff. CS ain't it.
Yes me too I think. I think Carl and I simul came up with an idea of straining ... so that cs dice were lost till you had time to shake it off and HD might be spent for a daily resource or tricks that if repeated against any target are done at a noteable penalty for the roguish encounter like move shrug.
I appreciate that WotC is trying to come up with new and exciting mechanics but for me CS dice just don't do it. If I want a "simple" martial class the 4e knight, slayer, and thief all do quite well and I feel are more fun than the 5e fighter. If I want a more complex martial class the 3e ToB classes are amazing. I want maneuvers, special strikes, and resource management. The 5e fighter gives me none of that. I'm hoping some other weapon wielding melee class will someday...
I appreciate that WotC is trying to come up with new and exciting mechanics but for me CS dice just don't do it. If I want a "simple" martial class the 4e knight, slayer, and thief all do quite well and I feel are more fun than the 5e fighter. If I want a more complex martial class the 3e ToB classes are amazing. I want maneuvers, special strikes, and resource management. The 5e fighter gives me none of that. I'm hoping some other weapon wielding melee class will someday...
Off the top of my head: Strikes that trade accuracy for defense, target multiple enemies, inflict status conditions or other penalties, deal massive damage without needing a full attack action and not usable every round, etc. Stances that increase your speed, reach, defenses, senses, damage at the trade of defense, and mobility. Other maneuvers that allow for "double" jumps, reactions to parry attacks completely, the ability to ignore magical effects, and more.
That was mostly iron heart stuff too. There are 8 more schools to choose maneuvers from that all do different unique things. (Well 5 more schools if you are a warblade).
Just to throw this out in the open... How much sense does it make, in a high magic game (where Wizards can Fly all day, dance between planes and vernichtung C'thulhu with eye lazors) that anyone, at higher levels, wouldn't be developing some magics, or psionics if you prefer. Simply put, when it comes time to break (what passes for) "reality" it becomes magic. No class, at high levels, in such a setting would be non-magical. I'm not talking half-caster, more like some versions of the Monk that just pick up supernatural prowess as they wander out of normal guy land/levels.
Heck, unless we're talking about an uber-gritty reality-based setting (where magic is virtually nonexistent), it's not that hard to explain how "magical" a character becomes in spite of being rooted in the mundane:
In the Great Wheel (or whatever other arrangement of the multiverse you might want), the plane that virtually every character in almost every campaign starts in is always the nexus upon which all planes intersect[1]. It is not hard to imagine that because these planes of existence intersect with each other at this nexus, and because these planes of existence are, themselves, magical, it is not hard to imagine that the magic from all these planes flow through every creature. This magic is what magicians study and master, and what both empowers gods and what the gods grant to empower their servants (which explains why anti-magic shield affect both prayer and spell). Monks use a combination of physical training and self-reflection to unlock this universal magic that is found within, and allows them to do fantastic things even if they lack weapons.
The guy who just trains really, really hard? He wouldn't be aware of such magic existing in the world, and wouldn't care. He just knows that if he trains really well, he can eventually tackle creatures that normal folks fear. He just knows that he can eventually react earlier, fight faster, hit harder, and do stuff better, using only his muscles, even though to normal people he becomes less, and less normal, and more and more... legendary. Then it comes to a point where he can cleave all but the most powerful dragons without blinking an eye, and he can wipe out armies by himself, simply by being that awesomely skilled and powerful[2].
He'll attribute it to training and hard work of course, but sages who study how the universe works would likely attribute his capabilities to the fact that he was working so hard at perfecting what he's good at, that he subconsciously taps into the universally existing magic[3], and work from there, almost like a monk. Of course, because he isn't a monk, he doesn't get to do all that fancy kung fu stuff. Good thing too, because he's not aiming for spiritual perfection and complete union with the universal magic that some call the Weave, chi or what not -- he's simply a guy with his sword and his armor and he's got a job to do: kick butt and chew bubble gum.
Now if there were only more ways to kick butt other than by doing damage...
- - - - - Spellcasting as the domain of casters I get. Spells allowing early access to magic I also get. What I don't get is why should casters be 100% magic and non-casters be 0% magic unless they equip themselves with magical equipment (likely crafted by spellcasters) all the time, even when the party is already traveling across planes and dealing with devils, demons, gods, titans and other planar threats? Can't the fighter end up rubbing all that magic on him and eventually becoming magical himself, even though he himself is unaware of it? I mean the fact that in a certain edition of D&D you had a medium sized creature handling a greatsword in each hand, making at least 5 strikes every 6 seconds and dealing so much damage that you could probably slice a car with the amount of power you're putting out, which is certainly not something a normal person can do. Yet it's still considered mundane because you didn't use spells, you only took feats, and you used your physique and didn't transform or anything.
So... can anyone really tell me why a wuxia fighter at high level -- JUST at high level -- is considered a bad thing in D&D, given how in every edition of D&D they were able to achieve unbelievable "mundane" feats and perform things no normal person can even think of doing?
- - - - - [1] although in spite of it being the intersection of all planes, it is not in of itself a doorway to all planes of existence, that is what the Plane of Doors is for, which could be considered the core of the "normal" plane. [2] especially when augmented by magical items, but even without magic items he should be able to tackle just about any creature and, well, as long as he does not get himself killed via stupidity, win [3] which sort of entertains the possibility of spontaneously gaining a divine spark, or at least have his soul shine brightly enough that deities would take an interest on him and possibly raising him to exarch or even demigod and eventually gain a divine spark of his own
This. So much this. I think the key is reinforcing the idea that Fighters can end up being just as epic and powerful as Wizards by level 20. The idea of ambient magic bleeding into the character, allowing these sorts of things, is pure GENIUS. It also does wonders to explain the presence of magical creatures - perhaps centuries of magic "mutations" and evolution transformed a species of bear into Owlbears, or maybe Merfolk were once like humans, but centuries of living in or around water allowed them to adapt to their environment, and they simply decided to build cities underwater. Who knows? Anyway, I just wanted to say that I think the idea is brilliant.
I think another method of restricting how "mystic" you want your fighters to be would be, well, character level. You could implement the same levels of play like 4E, only condensed into 20 levels instead of 30. Sinbad might be appropriate for a 4th to 6th level fighter, but if you plan on playing Hercules, something in the 12th to 15th level range might be a better fit. Plus, if Dms want to keep a very low-magic campaign, there should be an option like E6 where characters simply stop "leveling" after a while, but they might continue to accrue small quantities of hit points (1-3 every now and then), gain extra feats, and advance their Specialties a bit more. In fact, maybe the game could have 3 "soft caps", level 6, level 13, and level 20, i.e., E6, E13, and Standard.
I still think very strongly that a Fighter should be able to keep up with a Wizard in the mid to high levels. It's also not just a matter of damage output - levels 7 to 13 start introducing things like Flight, Teleport, Dominate, Save-or-Die, and more. The fighter should have some method of either becoming more resistant to those sorts of effects, be able to couteract said effect, or he should have access to other, equally potent abilities. Personally, I kind of like the idea of a Fighter's body becoming infused with inherent magic that makes them significantly more resistant to particularly nasty spells, like death effects and dominate.
Now if only I can convice the WotC team to call it Earth Pony Magic...
Again Until people define what a high level character can do mechanically that a low level fighter can't, this topic will go nowhere. Until you imagine the actual character sheet of a level 20 fighter, you can't compare it to a level 20 wizard.
@Orzel; One persons response early on was something like this. I dont own the book but have read some of it, but it gets some nice air time on the forums...
(the book of Nine Swords)
That's not a character sheet but it does say exactly anything.
For example, there is a retired hero, Lord Graze McSlash, in my setting. If the PCs encounter him, he would be equivalent to a very gihter level fighter.
If he were ported to Next and played, I'd imagine he's be able to:
Deadly Strike Parry Glancing Blow Cleave Jab Spend CS dice to strike targets he can't see at no penalty Roll CS dice to add reach to his attacks Spend CS dice to throw any weapon Spend CS dice to double weapon ranges Roll CS dice to boost intiative Spend CS dice to attack the enemy with his own weapon Spend CS to cancel an enemy crit Spend CS dice to make an attack at if he rolled a natural 20
Graze's strategy? Spend CS to go first. Spend CS to throw vorpal sword. Spend CD to confirm 2 crit.
Sure if you have more than 150 HP, you're safe.
When he levels, maybe Lord Graze will learn to boomerang his prized vorpal sword? May he'll even invent a Vorpal attack for his normal swords?
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
