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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 10:19AM
#61
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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Speaking as one of those who feels that AEDU fighters really stretches the bounds of my suspensionj of disbelief - I think there is a solution.
Part of the problem with AEDU fighters is that it isn't 'logical' (for those who share certain assumptions) that a fighter might be able to do 'fancy move X' in the morning and then - later in the same day - be totally unable to use that move again. Even though spells have the same mechanic - because spells are magical and thus have no real world equivalent - they don't seem to violate real world principles.
But I think that - as long as the powers a) can be repeated and b) cost some daily management resources this can work.
For example - if the fighters had very powerful moves (still within the bounds of physical possibility) - but they had to spend a hit die to use them - they would feel pressured to save them (because they cost their hit die), they would have only a few uses a day (more as they get higher level) and it would fit the idea of the fighter pushing himself to achieve greatness.
But what would these 'still within the bounds of physical possibility' moves be?
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 3:10PM
#62
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That's pretty much in line with what I was talking about above. As for what lies within the bounds of physical possibility, well just think of what your could do with a meter of sharpened steel or some other tool of war if you took away the abstraction of hit points:
- kill someone in a single attack(if wizards can cast finger of death, why can't fighters simply run someone through occasionally)
- blind someone temporarily(cut above the brow, causing blood to obscure their vision)
- completely negate damage(that's what shields are for, yo)
- slow someone(slice the tendons of a leg and see how fast they move)
- Weaken someone (similar action, only against the muscles of a striking limb)
- instead of parry, automatically deal damage to someone when they do damage to you
and that's just a few examples off the top of my head. These are all things(well except the first one) that my group used to do with called shots back in 2nd edition. It made fighters fun for me back then, and there's no reason that it couldn't work now with a more formal mechanic.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 3:18PM
#63
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2012
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Speaking as one of those who feels that AEDU fighters really stretches the bounds of my suspensionj of disbelief - I think there is a solution.
Part of the problem with AEDU fighters is that it isn't 'logical' (for those who share certain assumptions) that a fighter might be able to do 'fancy move X' in the morning and then - later in the same day - be totally unable to use that move again. Even though spells have the same mechanic - because spells are magical and thus have no real world equivalent - they don't seem to violate real world principles.
But I think that - as long as the powers a) can be repeated and b) cost some daily management resources this can work.
For example - if the fighters had very powerful moves (still within the bounds of physical possibility) - but they had to spend a hit die to use them - they would feel pressured to save them (because they cost their hit die), they would have only a few uses a day (more as they get higher level) and it would fit the idea of the fighter pushing himself to achieve greatness.
But what would these 'still within the bounds of physical possibility' moves be?
Carl
Carl, that idea of using hit dies is gold. I like it.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 3:20PM
#64
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X = hit die or permanent cs die (recover by long rest)
Rage - Go into a berserker rage where you gain a heap of bonuses for as many rounds as the X die spent rolled + CON mod, then you lose that X for the day
Actionpoint - spend X and act twice
Last stand - spend X and gain X rolled * 2 temporary HP, they vanish after X rolled rounds.
Break free - spend X and roll a Str, Con or Dex save for a condition/situation you are in, with advantage.
Take action - spend X and improve your initiative count with X rolled.
etc..
The problem with giving fighters these kind of things is that it extends the 5 min workday to them. They are supposed to be able to haul the wizards back from the battle after their batteries are out.
A fighter without CS dice can't do that.. (and spending Hit dice on stuff like this would be too cheap, it got to be CS)
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 3:33PM
#65
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That's why I suggested a three tier system above. Maneuvers for at will, tricks for "encounter," and stunts for a resource pool that refreshes on a short rest. That way, the fighter always has something(other than attack attack attack) to do, with some more powerful abilities that are limited in use for a single fight. No 5 minute workday necessary.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 3:39PM
#66
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What is the difference between encounter and shortrest powers? Typically encounter powers are defined as powers you can use again after a short rest.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 3:54PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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That's pretty much in line with what I was talking about above.
As for what lies within the bounds of physical possibility, well just think of what your could do with a meter of sharpened steel or some other tool of war if you took away the abstraction of hit points:
- kill someone in a single attack(if wizards can cast finger of death, why can't fighters simply run someone through occasionally)
- blind someone temporarily(cut above the brow, causing blood to obscure their vision)
- completely negate damage(that's what shields are for, yo)
- slow someone(slice the tendons of a leg and see how fast they move)
- Weaken someone (similar action, only against the muscles of a striking limb)
- instead of parry, automatically deal damage to someone when they do damage to you
and that's just a few examples off the top of my head. These are all things(well except the first one) that my group used to do with called shots back in 2nd edition. It made fighters fun for me back then, and there's no reason that it couldn't work now with a more formal mechanic.
Let me rephrase that: What is 'within the bounds of physical possibility" that is so awesome as to be a daily power. Many of those things on your list I think should be available more often.
Slow, temporary blind, reposte all would be better as a CS manuever.
Completely negating damage is ok, but I'm not sure it's worth a daily - but we really can't tell until we see how they scale monster damage. You can already negate a couple of dice at L5.
Autokill one target might be appropriate at the level when wizards get it (usually somewhere around L13).
Weakening someone for an entire encounter might be a good candidate. Temporaray (1 round) weakening would be better as a manuever.
Any other ideas?
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 3:58PM
#68
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2011
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If autokill is included, then it should have a HP cap. It should still be very powerful, killing monsters that would normally take roughly 3-4 attacks to kill, but something with enough HP to survive multiple rounds of concentrated fire should resist such an attack. Maybe it still deals damage on a miss/successful save...
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 4:00PM
#69
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If fighters would have powers costing resources like removing CS from their pool.. the gains would have to be either extreme or last the entire encounter. If they last the encounter, it makes no sense to let it refresh on a short rest, then it has to be a long rest or they would be used every single battle non stop.
Also, the entire point with a powerpoint system (as losing CS or HD would be in practice) is that you should be able to go nova... that's the entire point of it, thus the risk of the 5min workday (although personally I have no problem with it.. if my players burn all their resources into one fight then they would suffer for it unless they had solid plans for getting that rest afterwards..)
Just going full out AED on the fighter.. what's the point of that?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 4:03PM
#70
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Any other ideas?
yea, those I posted
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