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Locked: Fighter Complexity
8 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 8:44PM #291
Tony_Vargas
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2001
Posts: 10,732

Sep 21, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Seerow wrote:

He said basically "We don't want the Fighter to have as many options as the Wizard because "it's magic". It's a world full of magic and magic is the stuff that can do all this stuff...over the life of the edition, maybe there will be as many Fighter maneuvers as there will be Wizard spells at launch." 


Yep.  It's just "anti-martialism."  That pervasive double-standard that puts fighters and other non-casters under a 10-ton weight called 'realism' and puts casters on a 10-ton rocket called 'magic' and calls it even.  


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8 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 9:09PM #292
Zappy
Date Joined: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: 594

Sep 25, 2012 -- 5:49PM, Emerikol wrote:

Sep 25, 2012 -- 3:55PM, chaosfang wrote:


We should never have Tier 1, 2, 5 or 6 PCs ever again.  NPCs... maybe.  But PCs are the classes that players will be handling by default, so why should there be a Mr. Useless and a Mr. Godlike?




This is the crux of the debate.  This never happened in a lot of peoples games.  The fighter by far in previous editions was the most popular class.  I never had to recruit a fighter.  I never saw the fighter outshone by the wizard or cleric.  I'm sure in my games you'd point and say see see but no one at my table would even recognize it as such.



And in all the years my group played 3.5 every week there was only ever one fighter for one campaign. That was me. My first 3.5 character. NEVER played one again. Too boring.



I tire of the endless battles over these issues.  I kind of wish they'd just make two classes and be done with it.  I'm willing to call mine the slayer.  The attempt to placate your demands and mine is likely to produce a class that neither of us really likes that well.  The current fighter is perhaps case in point.  Your approach for me turns every class into the exact same playstyle.  This is what 4e did and I found that very boring. 




Yeah two classes, or sub classes, or builds or something like that may be the only option. i do understand how the similarities in progression and mechanics were a problem for some people. However I loved it. When I play a character I want lots of choices. Choices at character creation, choices at leveling up, and choices during each and every round. I like dynamic abilities that I can choose from. 3.5 fighter just didn't do that for me the only thing they had was choice at level up. Pick a feat. Which was usually determined almost entirely on what you had chosen before. Sometimes it was all determined at character creation. Next is much better, but it needs more which I fully expect them to deliver.

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good.
Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus.

Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.
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8 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 11:49PM #293
Vikingkingq
Date Joined: Oct 8, 2005
Posts: 1,058

Sep 25, 2012 -- 11:28AM, CarlT wrote:



This doesn't prove a desire for Wuxia.

This proves that a) fighters sucked in 3.x and people wanted more options and b) fighters were boring in the last playtest and people wanted more options.

The current playtest is not wuxia - and the fighter is testing extremely well.  Although personally, I think there is a lot of room for improvement still (more manuevers, encounter-strength manuevers that you can use by burning an expertise die till the next short rest, and daily-strength manuevers that you can use by burning a hit die).  But none of these have to or should (imho) exceed the limits of fictional (non-mystical) warriors.

Carl




I think it shows that people like Fighters that are fun to play, and don't have a problem with Fighters that are splashy.

I think it also shows that "wuxia" (itself an inaccurate dismisssive label) is something people have less of a problem with than is assumed.

And I do think end-game Fighters need to maintain parity with end-game enemies and environments, and should feel appropriately epic compared to level 1 Fighters - and I'd point to the Fighter design goals' emphasis on the Fighter as mundane in the context of fantasy, myth and legend.  

Race for the Iron Throne - political and historical analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire.
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8 months ago  ::  Sep 25, 2012 - 11:58PM #294
Vikingkingq
Date Joined: Oct 8, 2005
Posts: 1,058

Sep 25, 2012 -- 2:07PM, Emerikol wrote:


1.  Fighters get unlimited opportunity attacks.
2.  Fighters get to counterattack anyone that misses them by more than 5
3.  Fighters critical on any roll that is 5 more than needed.
4.  Fighters get to add an effect when they crit like stun or trip or even more damage etc...
5.  Fighters exert zones of control that prevent movement past them.
6.  Fighters get awesome saves across the board
7.  Fighters get multiple attacks and can divide their movement up between attacks.
8.  Fighters charge better and bullrush better

With some time I could come up with lots of fighter special abilities that aren't "spell like" powers.   That don't have a once per day or once per round mechanic.   
 




A couple things to point out:
1. Save or die has been flatly ruled out by devs. Not happening.
2. Fighters will already get to counterattack anyone who misses them - it's a mid-level manuever called Riposte, and it takes 3 dice to activate. 
3. Adding affects via crit is less useful than status quo.
4. There is no Fighter-based save system. There may well be the equivalent of Iron Heart Surge; I could see that happening.
5. Give me a level 12-15ish leaping charge, and I'm good to go.  

Race for the Iron Throne - political and historical analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire.
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8 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2012 - 1:08AM #295
Promitheas
Date Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 567
Im still thinking that the real issue here is the at will resource management the fighters have so far. The concept you must be that much amazing each round, every round, every day.

Wuxia or a realistic approach can be as simple as different narrations in a table as long as both are supported by the rules.

If we have a daily/short resource for fighters with the ability to nova, we can probably merge/compromise these two into a single system.

I mentioned a daily mechanic for fighters where a 1st level fighter can nova for 4d6 cs or +4 skills in a round. If a first level fighter spends 4cs in a round for a 20 foot shift, does it really matter if a fighter tumbles its way up or around the enemies? shoves them with his shield? or spear walks all the way there?

Wuxia vs real is a matter better left for the table with abilities that can support both.

Beats the specific spear walking power level x and doesnt force anyone to play his way or the highway.
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8 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2012 - 5:12AM #296
Uchawi
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 1,753
I am not sure you really need a complex resource system for a martial characters, because they have hit points that are constantly taken away, and without the help of healing, they will be limited on how long they can fight throughout the day. But having a daily ability for a monk called "death touch" or similar figher ability makes sense, because it would represent the ultimate combination of training that taxes the whole body.
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8 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2012 - 6:45AM #297
CarlT
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2009
Posts: 2,878

Sep 25, 2012 -- 1:42PM, Seerow wrote:




But seriously, you guys have said my expectations for the Fighter to compete with my preperceptions of the Wizard are too outlandish. So you tell me what the Wizard is doing. Just give a rough picture. 2-3 spells at level 10 (5th level spell), 15 (8th level spell), and 20 (10th level spell). What is it you feel the Wizard should be doing that is not more overpowering and versatile than anything else out there, but still feels magical to you. Would you be happy with a Wizard just throwing out variations of fireball at higher levels? Or do you expect him to start getting things like Dominate Monster, Gate, Prismatic Sphere? Expectations define everything, and what you expect a high level game to look like on the magical end of things defines what it has to look like for the mundanes. 

Or if you rather, what challenges do you think are appropriate for a level 20 character? What should a character be doing at high levels that he can't at low levels? What sorts of things is he coming up against both in and out of combat? Do you expect the party to be fighting Rocs or Balors? Do you expect them to be dungeon crawling or plane hopping? 





OK - here is a shot at comparing a wizard to a fighter.  I've only looked at the L3 spells so far.  I'll take a look at L6 spells later and eventually L9 spells (although I"m not sure what we will learn except that the game breaks past L13 or so and isn't worth playing anymore anyway).

I'm the wrong one to ask about L20 play.  I've never cared for 'epic level play' in any edition.  The game doesn't work at that level and if I wanted to play superheroes I'd go play Champions or some such.  Except - oh wait - I don't play superheroes games either because I don't like playing superheroes.... My characters retire long before they start tossing time stops and wishes around - because the game is boring at that level whether you are a fighter OR a wizard.   

But I"ll be happy to discuss these issues up to around L13.



So - a look at the L3 spells. Note:  These are all just off the top of my head and I would expect them to need heavy tweaking. 



Also note:  Some of these are, I think, appropriate for at-will (CS die) manuevers. Some are appropriate for "Encounter caliber" powers (I like the idea of burning a CS die until the next short rest). And some are appropriate for "Daily caliber" powers (I like the idea of burning a Hit Die). I know that someone (Seerow?) expressed a dislike of this idea because the fighters need those hit dice - but that is exactly the point. They are powerful attacks and it is up to the player to balance the benefit of using the power versus the healing. However, none of them are 'fire and forget' powers like the 4e Encounter and Daily powers.  if the fighter knows the manuever and if the fighter is able to pay the cost  (has the cs die/ hit die) and if the fighter is willing to spend the cost - they can use the attack multiple times. In fact - my concern isn't that they need the hit die and therefore it is too severe a cost - it is whether the hit die is a significant enough cost at higher levels. But I like it as a starting point to balance such 'daily caliber' powers.



Final note: I do not buy into the idea that the fighter should be able to do everything that the wizard does anymore than I acccept that the wizard should be able to do everything that the rogue does. To claim otherwise is to embrace a rather obvious double standard. However - in combat, the fighter should be equally effective and thus the excercise has value.  However, in some cases the difference between the fighter and the wizard is that the wizard can do {X} to multiple targets or a larger area while the fighter does {x} in his immediate vicinity.  I don't see this as a major problem.  I'm sure some will disagree.



Starting with the damage spells:



FIreball and Lightning Bolt - both of these are multi-target attack spells with shape constraints that tend to limit how many targets the caster can hit. They do roughly 17-18 points of damage if the save is failed and around 9 points if the save is made.



Fireball/ Lighting Bolt (Melee Fighter Equivalent): A whirlwind attack that allows the fighter to make a regular attack against all adjacent creatures. This is a multi-target attack that is shape-constrained and thus limits how many and which targets can be hit. As it does not target allies, it is easier to use, but as it attacks adjacent targets it carries higher risk. At L5 the fighter's damage on a hit can be as high as 19 points, and (with glancing blow) 9 points on a miss.



Fireball/ LBolt (Ranged Fighter equivalent) - a burst one attack similar to rapid shot in 4E which allows the fighter to make a ranged attack using a bow against a target and all creatures adjacent to that target. The damage with this attack is less than the damage with the mlee attack (dropping to around 16-18 points; glancing blow would allow 9 points on a miss. This attack targets enemies only, not allies.



Next - we have the "Spells useful in combat but which do not actually do damage:



Blink: This spell randomly teleports the caster around the battlefield and makes some attacks less likely to hit. The original AD&D version had several serious limitations on its use - which were dumped for the 3.x GodCaster version. I'd probably go with something closer to the AD&D version - but perhaps with not quite as severe penalties (in AD&D you had a small chance of being permently dumped on the Ethereal plane). The greatest difference between the AD&D version and the 3.x version was that in AD&D 1) it did not automatically affect all attacks, only those about to hit you in the segment you 'blinked' and 2) you moved 2' away in a random direction, while in 3.x 1) it gave all physical attacks a 50% miss chance and 2) you could use it to move through solid rock. I would go with something closer to the AD&D version in spirit - it would not work on all attacks; ratther it would allow the caster to 'blink' as a reaction when attacked by a melee attack. This 'blink' would cause that attack to miss - however since it is a reaction it cannot affect more than one attack per round.



Blink (FIghter equivalent): The fighter, due to his advanced training and reflexes, can completely avoid one attack per round. As a reaction, when targetted by a melee attack, the fighter can choose to dodge that attack causing it to miss completely.



Feign Death: This spell allows the wizard to place a willing creature in a state of near suspended animation that is almost indistinguishable from death. While in this state, the creature remains conscious and aware, but is unable to see or hear. While in this state, poisons and other effects are delayed and any damage taken by the body is reduced by 50%. I would leave this spell pretty much as is, with some clarifications to fit the new mechanics. The only change I would make would be to allow the target to hear and to allow the target to exit the spell on its own (in AD&D the caster can end it early, but not the target).



Feign Death (Fighter equivalent): Essentially the fighter can enter a trance virtually identical to the above.



Haste: This spell in AD&D doubles the moves and melee attacks of multiple creatures. It was generally seen as one of the better spells of AD&D and has been through mulitple changes since then. The 3.0 version was specifically identified as badly broken during the 3.5 development. Part of the problem with the 3.x versions was that it also increased AC and gave attack bonuses as well. I'm not sure exactly how it's mechanics would work for 5E, but I would like to see it allowing faster movement and allowing for an extra physical attack. I suspect that part of what this spell will need to balance it at this level would be a severe reduction in duration - most likley it only lasts till the end of the caster's next turn - thus giving all of his allies one extra attack. Note: the alternative to one round for multiple targets is multiple rounds for one target. I prefer the former, but it could also be balanced towards the latter.



Haste (fighter equivalent): The fighter can 'haste' himself, gaining the same benefits as the spell until the end of his next turn.



Hold Person: This spell works differently in AD&D, but we'll assume the 5E version (with the no-save, no-break immobilize having been fixed)



Hold Person (fighter equivalent): A stun attack. If successful, the creature cannot act for a short time.



Monster Summong I: Summons things. Summoned monsters should not be completely independent, but they should have instinctive actions which they take if not given orders - typically they attack the closest creature. Even if the closest creature is an ally of the caster.  The monster that can be summoned should not be more powerful than a fighter of that level.



Monster Summoning I (fighter equivalent): None. The fighter is the monster.



Gust of Wind: This spell creates a strong wind that can extinguish torches, fan large fires, push small flying creatures and slow larger creatures (and disperse cloud spells).



Gust of Wind (fighter equivalent): I'm not sure there is enough demand for something like this - but I suppose the fighter could createa more localized version of the same effect. It might require a shield (to use as a fan) but would otherwise work similarly in all adjacent squares.



Slow: The slow spell makes multiple targets move more slowly and attack at half thier normal rate. The 3.x version restricted them to only a single action. I would probably go with something closer to that -they can move or attack but not both. On the other hand, if the spell duration is reduced to end of caster's next turn (as with haste) then the spell needs a bit more - something. I think I'd go with "The target is slowed and dazed and cannot charge" if it only lasts for one round. As with Haste, this assumes multiple targets for one round, but it could also be balanced for one target for multple rounds.



Slow (fighter equivalent): The fighter delivers a ringing low that dazes and slows the target until the end of the fighter's next turn.



Metamagic spells: Some spells are manipulations of magic itself: Dispel Magic. I don't think the fighter should have an ability to duplicate this - although perhaps he might have an ability to give himself additional chances to save against spells.



Buff/ Debuff Spells: Flame Arrow, Fly, Prot Evil 10', and Prot Normal Missiles.LIkewise, I don't see most of these as having fighter equivalents (although I suppose Prot Normal Missiles - if in the game - could be replicated as a defensive manuever to block incoming arrows.  Flame arrow can be duplicated now through non-magical means, although a more explicit explanation (involving oil soaked rags and the like) would probably be a good addition to the text somewhere.



Other: Explosive Runes, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion: I likewise don't see these as having non-magical equivalents. At least not ones the fighter would have. Rogues might be able to duplicate Explosive Runes and maybe even Suggestion through skill use.



Exploration Pillar Spells: These spells are far harder to duplicate. So far, I've focused mostly on combat - because that is where I started this process - looking for ways to improve Combat Expertise. Eventually solutions need to be found here as well. But I don't see the solution here as duplicating the wizard in any way (just as the wizard shouldn't be duplicating the rogue). We need a separate dialog to discuss what the role of the fighter is in exploration (besides 'opener of doors and lifter of portcullises'). The following are the third level exploration pillar spells of AD&D: Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, Infravision, Invisibility, 10'r, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Tongues, Water Breathing





And there you have a rought start on the process.


Carl


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8 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2012 - 8:04AM #298
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 17,689

Sep 26, 2012 -- 6:45AM, CarlT wrote:


Haste: This spell in AD&D doubles the moves and melee attacks of multiple creatures. It was generally seen as one of the better spells of AD&D and has been through mulitple changes since then. The 3.0 version was specifically identified as badly broken during the 3.5 development. Part of the problem with the 3.x versions was that it also increased AC and gave attack bonuses as well. I'm not sure exactly how it's mechanics would work for 5E, but I would like to see it allowing faster movement and allowing for an extra physical attack. I suspect that part of what this spell will need to balance it at this level would be a severe reduction in duration - most likley it only lasts till the end of the caster's next turn - thus giving all of his allies one extra attack. Note: the alternative to one round for multiple targets is multiple rounds for one target. I prefer the former, but it could also be balanced towards the latter.



Haste (fighter equivalent): The fighter can 'haste' himself, gaining the same benefits as the spell until the end of his next turn.






Mix in a little Warlord and you are creating extra openings for your allies. Sometimes to move, sometimes to attack sometimes both. I mean the threads title says fighter but I think any martial archetype is in the arena.

Improvisation in 4e: Improv. Attacks(by wrecan) - Fave 4E Improvisations

The Non-combatant Adventurer

Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness

Dynamic Reflavoring : The Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage
Creative Character Collection - Featuring:The Faerie Master - Snow White - Joxer - Ironman - Elric - Bloodwright

By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one

"You have to explicitly give non-casters permission to do awesome, where as with magic it is just assumed they can." -Garthanos

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8 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2012 - 9:24AM #299
Caeric
Date Joined: Jun 16, 2007
Posts: 1,680
Oh, y'know what's another thing Fighters should get, as the weapon masters of the game? The second half of Skill Mastery, but for weapons. Or perhaps slightly better! Perhaps their lowest attack bonus with any weapon they're proficient with (at any time, even accounting for circumstantial penalties) is equal to their Weapon Attack Bonus plus 2. A side effect is that a Fighter with 8 Dexterity (because he put all of his points in strength) can use a bow decently, and contribute adequately in encounters where he can't get up close. It would well represent that a Fighter is at least decent with all the weapons he's trained with. Like the rogue is at least decent with all the skills he's trained with. 
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
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8 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2012 - 12:16PM #300
Sesdun
Date Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 357
@Caeric While I hope this is sarcastic, I realise that it probably is not. =)
Why have ability scores then in the first place?
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