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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 8:36AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Ok I know a lot of people object to codified roles for classes, because .... well I haven't heard any good reasons but it seems to be a thing anyway.
What if each class had specific features for a role and when you take the class you choose which role features it progresses.
So for example instead of having the druid be OMFG HAX! because it has multiple class features stronger than whole classes, like in 3e, or limited to the wild-shape caster like in 4e. You pick one based on the role you wanna fill and how you wanna fill it.
So a defender druid would get wild shape and a more limited spell list.
A striker druid would get animal companion and a more limited spell list.
A controller druid would get better spells, especially access to AoEs and such.
While a leader druid would get more healy-buffy spells.
You can do the same thing with a berserker:
Striker gets charge in and do massive damage on a single strike abilities.
Controller gets the cleave and whirlwind type stuff to clear a path through multiple foes.
Leader can induce frenzy in allies.
Defender ...
Ok so some class-role combos are harder than others but you get the idea.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 8:50AM
#2
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This is basically how I play 4E.
Still I would prefer if 5E classes had the 'ability' to perform various roles without being forced to do only that.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 8:56AM
#3
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Clarification, I mean, classes and characters should not be locked into a role, especially not balance wise like in 4E. Players should be able to turn their characters toward roles, or combination of roles or roles they have made up by themselves, but that should be determined by their choices, not forced by rules.
If a fighter chooses to use a shield and platemail he becomes more of a defender and less than a striker than a figher in medium armor and a two handed sword, but the rules don't force them into those categories.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 9:06AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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In principle I think that's exactly what most folks want. 3e actually does this but it doesn't make you come out and say "I'm gonna be a tank" on your character sheet. The tank feats and spells are there; the player is free to pick them. One of the things I like about the 5e we've got so far is they allow us to pick those roles but they don't force a class to always be one role (exactly as you're describing). A fighter can pick the fighting style to fill a specific range of roles in the group - mostly tank or striker but there's some variety in each. Clerics are all over the shop as well with domains basically determining all of their baseline proficiencies and giving spells that push them into drastically different sorts of play styles. Rogues and wizards, I feel, have less flexibility going for them right now but maybe that'll change. Just using 3e as an example (might be a bad idea... we'll see), the only role a wizard can't really fill is a healer. I know there were mechanical flaws and in practise the wizard wasn't as flexible but that wasn't the fault of the spells so much as it was the way monster saves scaled up. A 3e rogue isn't as flexible in practise as it was in theory either but there was potential for them to fill a wide variety of roles in the party. I think my main complaint about roles, aside from the mistake of forcing classes to only perform one function, is that it creates a situation where people perceive that their class is only good in combat. I know the roleplaying doesn't have to depend on the mechanics but the way the mechanics are presented has an impact on how people roleplay, for better or worse.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 9:11AM
#5
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Ok I know a lot of people object to codified roles for classes, because .... well I haven't heard any good reasons but it seems to be a thing anyway.
Because they pigionhole things. Even if they don't actually pigionhole things, it makes people feel like they are being pigionholed.
For example, you try and have 4 different druids and beserkers. You crowed out the idea that there could be say... a skirmishing druid/beserker too.
That said, the base idea of classes with choices is good. Though i feel they are already doing that with sub-classes..
warlocks get different pacts, sorcerers have different bloodlines, fighters have different styles, rogues have different schemes, wizards have specialties, clerics have domains.
Not hard to imagine druids with different circles/seasons, or beserkers with different clans. Each covering a "sub-role".
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:30AM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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Well, it's something at least. We wouldn't need to come up with a whole new "Avenger" class if a normal paladin could just choose to be either a tank or a healer or a striker. On those grounds, the idea has merit.
It really doesn't "solve" the problem of roles, though. You still make one decision (to be a tank or a healer or a striker or a controller) and that heavily influences every action you'll ever take for the duration of the campaign. I hate to bring up the WoW comparison (is that like the new Godwin's Law around here?), but it is really directly analogous to how they deal with their class system over there: each class has three sub-classes, and each sub-class has one specific role, and if you try to violate that role then you are "doing it wrong".
My opinion has always been that the choices you make in combat should be "what to do" and not "how to do it"; rather than choosing between a big heal or a small heal, or choosing between a heavy strike or two light strikes, or choosing whether to entangle a foe or to blind a foe, the question should be whether to heal or to strike or to control.
Acting within a role does not make for interesting choices - there is almost always a "best" answer. Choosing which role to act upon does make every choice interesting, because the options are not directly comparable.
The metagame is not the game.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:35AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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This is basically how I play 4E.
Still I would prefer if 5E classes had the 'ability' to perform various roles without being forced to do only that.
Fighter does this, and should serve as an effective model.
Sorcerer has a chance of doing this, depending on how subsequent origins turn out. A Dragon Sorc is a rather respectable tank, if built with that in mind.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:22AM
#8
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Yes, 5E so far is quite good in this respect. The only thing I am a bit worried about is that all classes seem to need its own 'system'. Every class uses its own rules and its own resources. I think this treathens to limit players options to compose the character they want (and get the role they want), and it will complicate multiclassing.
That some classes had their own system (Wiz, Sor, Warlock) to do similar things was one of the annoying parts of 3e.. I hope some mechanical overlap will appear when new classes are added to the playtest..
If the ranger is driven by Thrill of the Hunt points and the Warlord has a number of shouts per day and level... then things are going in the wrong direction.... =/
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:57PM
#9
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It seems this edition is leaving the Controller, Leader, Striker, Defender roles. But your point still stands.
Fighter and Cleric seem easy enough to fill every roll so I can see that happening. Between Domains and CS you can probably make any role for each class. If you want a skillful non-rogue, however, you going to need Jack of all Trades.
For the wizard, it's harder. There are traditions we've yet to see and various spells for sure but fitting them in different roles is limited to Controler or Striker types. But Sorcerers and Warlocks can probably end up doing some healing so that'll help.
In the end though I would like it when I can have a group and they can pick any class without having to worry that "We don't have a cleric yet!"
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10 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 3:13PM
#10
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
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Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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One of the things I loved about 4e, which I fear may be lost, is how the system really rewarded teams that worked together. The controller set up the battlefield, the leader kept the allioes in the fray, the defender used the battlefield to hamper foes, and the striker used it to kill them
To recapture that, it's not enough that one player can build a controllery character -- if none of the others are built to synergize with them.
I fear a return to the days where it was every man for himself.
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