Making a class inheriently a glass cannon is not good for overall game balance (in theory). All classes, even strikers, have options to mitigate damage. The only time a glass cannon is acceptable in a group is if your defender and your healer are ok with it, or as a 5th or 6th PC. I think you should include somehting to give more versatility. Maybe one build gets damage mitigation, and the other builds gets mobility increase.
Mobility isn't an inherent increase to defense and relies heavily on the layout of the battlefield to be effective. So it would still be glass cannon. Unless you can cite some examples for the kind of mobility you're thinking of...?
I agree that if the damage bonus is single target, then it is not as powerful, however the +hit is still too strong. Prime shot requires that you maintain positioning, 'called out' (as it reads) is permanent until they die or you change targets. Change 'called out' so that it increases your acuracy in some other way. Maybe make it so that all gun-mage builds 'called out' ignores partial cover and concealment, and -2 from being marked. Or make it so that the +1 to hit has a possible situation where it won't work. It's not that a +1 to hit is overpowered, it's the the +1 maintaining its self regardless of position or circumstance.
Said damage also lags behind classes such as the Warlock and Ranger, who get +1 to hit and very large potential damage once per turn. (Hunter's Quarry, for one.) The only perk Gunmage has relative to that is that it can operate from longer range - a fact that isn't very helpful in the vast majority of battles I've seen, in campaigns I have run AND played in, since battlefields tend to be relatively small areas - and that they can apply their bonus damage to multiple attacks, if they use action points. I don't see this as over powered, considering those are very restricted resources. And while the Gunmage doesn't roll damage, it's still dealing about the same AVERAGE bonus damage as Quarry. But without the chance of getting a critical and maxing out that damage.
Also, if the bonus damage only applies to that one target, then it pushes the player away from any impliment area powers the class might have. As a spell caster, I'm assuming you would have at least some. The bonus damage you're getting is not huge compared to a ranger. In terms of balance, I would sudgest altering the extra damage to apply to all gun-mage attacks, so that impliment powers are not a less favorable option.
You complain that a +1 to hit and bonus damage is huge, then say the bonus damage is poor...? And how about I allow the bonus damage to apply to the target regardless of how many targets you're aiming at? "When you hit your called out enemy with a gunmage attack power or gunmage paragon path attack power, you can apply your bonus damage to the attack." (Do note that I WANT the bonus to work on non-rolled damage, specifically to help make up for the restrictions.)
I didn't say never, I said not many. As you get hgiher level, encounters usually last longer, but take few rounds total. If you have a clip of 6, that means even in a long encounter, you only need to reload once. Although it makes sense for realism; mechanically speaking, that extra minor action you have to spend once per encounter, IMO is not worth trying to remember.
Your opinion is noted.
They were just sudgestions on names. If you don't like them, you can change them to whatever. There are no other weapons that have titles. A weapon gets a title based on it's magic enhancment. The "radiant weapon" enhancment changes a "longsword" to a "radiant longsword." If you are using titles with your weapon, thenyour names don't fit the standard form, and start to sound funny. Since you like the names so much, try keeping them as fire arm enhancments. Considering there is no magic enhancment support designed for firearms, you might want to homebrew some to make the class more playable.
Yeah, maybe you didn't read the rest of the thread, but "Nothing has done this before!" isn't an argument I'm inclined to listen to. Don't get me wrong, I actually are about your opinion, but it's just that you'll need a better argument. Besides that, I think "Erathis' Radiant Revolver" would really rolled off the tongue. =D
1 You might be that kind of DM, but others are not. People that see this class might want to play it. Thier DM's might houserule the class into the game, but that doesn't mean they will change other rules to make it work. If you want it to be more playable at other tables, thats somehting you should consider.
Again, I've mentioned that I might consider changing the lesser class features into something more likely to be accessable at all tables and more likely to come up in a 'general' campaign. So your statement here is pretty much redundant.
2 On a similar note to above, designing a class for a specific flavor also makes it less apealling to other players. Are you designing a class that YOU want to play, or that OTHER PEOPLE want to play? If it feels too "western hero" then it limits others character concepts. Maybe they want to play more of a sleak sniper, or a run-and-gun berserker. The base classes in DnD are more "generic" so they can fit multiple concepts easier. Background, items, feats, paragon paths, give them more specific flavor.
ONE BUILD is more 'western hero' than the OTHER build. As in, it's inspired by the actions of western protagonists. Desperado is actually supposed to be flavored more towards a villain, but also works great as a run-and-gun berserker: Look at its powers. Notice the bursts that push enemies away. They're great for someone that loves to run right into the thick of things or wants a way to get out of close combat to run somewhere else.
3 Again, YOU might homebrew monsters, but OTHER people might not. You should focus more on your game design theory. "what works for me" is almost never "what works for everyone else", especially in a tabletop RPG. I agree that a DM should tailor the game to fit the players strengths and weaknesses, but as a designer, you should try to make the process more fool-proof.
If they're willing to allow homebrew classes then they really should be willing to homebrew something to serve as suitable opponents. And, again, I've mentioned a willingness to change it, but how am I supposed to know what's 'fool proof' when I'm working off my experiences? Again, the POINT of this thread is to ask for advice based on the experiences of others. Some advice more concrete than "Make it fool-proof" and "Don't do this" would be nice, seeing as all I have to work with is 1. My experiences. 2. Internet based research, which is not always a reliable source.
As an aside, I just woke up, so if I mistyped anything or you need clarification, just ask. My cognitive abilities are not quite at their best.
EDIT: I'm considering making Call Out function a little more like Oath of Enmity, in the sense that you can't Call Out a new enemy until the first has been defeated/leaves the battlefield. Though reworking the 'another Gunmage Calling Out the target supercedes your Calling Out of the target" might take better wording than I am capable of at the moment. Unless it would be better to actually let a second gunmage 'pick up' the Called Out target, freeing up the first to go after someone else. Not sure how that would work out in the long run, but it could provide more synergy when having two gunmages in the same party.
Though I don't foresee that happening often and honestly, I'd rather encourage a more varied party. Two ranged strikers in the same team is going to be either redundant, powerful... or wind up with a dead gunmage, because the rest of the party isn't sticky enough to keep them both safe. (Given, a Desperado could work as a controller in a pinch, so if the party needs one... Gah, my mind wanders when tired.)
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
Rather than go through the tedium of formatting my files, then altering the formatting to be readable on the forum, I have decided that I'm just going to upload PDFs to Google Docs. Speak of, here is a LINK to the first Google Docs release. I make no promises of there being a Zelda.
The current version is completed through the entire heroic tier, including a handful of feats, multiclass feats and hybrid rules. Because I was bored, that's why.
I'm considering this a "play test" version, as I may still make significant changes, but it's still suitable for play.
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
looks good. You should add a couple "gunblades" as a magic item enchantments, in case someone wants to try a hybrid or multiclass with a melee weapon user. Something like property: this weapon functions both as a gun of X type, and a melee weapon of X type. The types would be whatever you think is appropriate for a combination, but there should be one that is half dagger (for rogue, hexblade, and sorceror hybrids), one that is half a one handed blade (for rangers, warlords, sword mages) and one that is a two handed blade (for swordmages and other strange builds). Everything else on the enhancment would be vanilla, but you could add a daily item power, that adds 1dx generic damage to one attack, but that might not be neccissary, because having somehting that can be a melee weapon, ranged weapon, and impliment is already pretty good.
Also, you might want to change the part for warforged that says "The warforged may also embed a two-handed firearm, but the firearm can only be treated as an implement." to "The warforged may also embed a two-handed firearm, but does not function as a firearm unless wielded two-handed."
warforged are able to embend two-handed melee weapons. The only real benefit is that you can't be disarmed/lose thier weapon.
A couple of errors got through my editing. They'll be corrected in the next release: -On page two, under GUNPLAY, the first sentence should read "Choose either Akimbo, Desperado or Sharpshooter at first level." I forgot to add the option there when I added Akimbo to the class. -On page eight, delete the "Miss" portion of the Sunstone Shot power. The power is Reliable, so it shouldn't have an effect on a miss. The effect is for a previous version of the power, anyway. EDIT: I see the problem. The miss portion of Sunstone was for Silent Selene. The changes have been made to my files.
And I'll continue looking over it in case there are other mistakes I missed.
looks good. You should add a couple "gunblades" as a magic item enchantments, in case someone wants to try a hybrid or multiclass with a melee weapon user.
Actually, I had considered adding a "Bayonet" magic item, which can be applied to any two-handed gun to allow it to act as a melee weapon. (Likely a Shortsword, to keep it from being too powerful.) But I decided not to add it until I can playtest the class with core magic items first.
warforged are able to embend two-handed melee weapons. The only real benefit is that you can't be disarmed/lose thier weapon.
...Since when? Eberron Player's Guide page 113, under Weapon, states that a two-handed weapon cannot be attached or imbedded. Errata states nothing to the contrary.
The only other relevant rules for two-handed weapons is that a warforged can embed a Staff (as all implements are either one-handed or don't require a hand), but they cannot use it as a quarterstaff if they do (because quarterstaffs are two-handed weapons.) Which is what I based the firearm attachment rules on.
Also, thank you for your interest.
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
I guess I was mistaken about the two handed weapon thing. IDK why I thought they could imbed them.
A "bayonette" magic item could also work. I jsut thought that being able to add the melee weapon property to weapons which might normally be ranged only could be exploitable. If it's a stand alone enchantment, then you can't use the "bayonette" to get a ranged weapon property onto a melee weapon.
You might also want to add a magic item that is a bullet equivilent of the wonderous item "endless quiver." Perhaps an "endless bandolier" And if you havn't specified it anywhere yet, say that all magic amunition for arrows can also be used for bullets.
Additionally, you might add a wonderous item that is a "magic noise supressor" for RP perposes of using guns and stealth.
For the sharpshooter style, you might want to change it it so that is one effect a save can end, and the temp HP increase to 5+wis at 11th level, and 10+wis at 21st level. Rolling a save out of turn is already good, because that means you won't have X effect at the start of your turn. Rolling a save against all save ends conditions is a perk that (as far as I know) can't be achieved until paragon. Adding more temp at higher levels helps it remain affective.
I guess I was mistaken about the two handed weapon thing. IDK why I thought they could imbed them.
You can't attach them, either.
A "bayonette" magic item could also work. I jsut thought that being able to add the melee weapon property to weapons which might normally be ranged only could be exploitable. If it's a stand alone enchantment, then you can't use the "bayonette" to get a ranged weapon property onto a melee weapon.
There's a reason I held off on adding it. That's also the reason I'd limit it acting as an inferior weapon (such as the dagger or shortsword.) It's giving you an MBA and a means to avoid opportunity attacks from using a ranged weapon in melee, both of which are significant balancing factors to ranged weapons.
There won't be any 'gunblades'... Not least of which is because, if you're referring to Final Fantasy 8 gunblades, they aren't ranged weapons. (Technically, they're more of a vibro-weapon.)
You might also want to add a magic item that is a bullet equivilent of the wonderous item "endless quiver." Perhaps an "endless bandolier" And if you havn't specified it anywhere yet, say that all magic amunition for arrows can also be used for bullets.
I might add an endless quiver equivalent.
If you want to get technical, none of the ammunition enchantments list "Arrow, bolt or (sling) bullet." There's a mention that any ammunition type can be enchanted with any of ammunition effects regardless of the enchantment's name. So a "Bolt of Clumsiness" can be added to a sling bullet. That would mean, as written, the rules would already take into account new ammunition types. I may add a line in the magic item section for clarity, though.
Additionally, you might add a wonderous item that is a "magic noise supressor" for RP perposes of using guns and stealth.
Possible. It would probably be a level 1 item. (Still, doesn't EVERYONE stop being hidden when they attack?)
For the sharpshooter style, you might want to change it it so that is one effect a save can end, and the temp HP increase to 5+wis at 11th level, and 10+wis at 21st level. Rolling a save out of turn is already good, because that means you won't have X effect at the start of your turn. Rolling a save against all save ends conditions is a perk that (as far as I know) can't be achieved until paragon. Adding more temp at higher levels helps it remain affective.
That... is a very good point. I had originally had it as rolling a save against every effect of a certain type, though I can't remember what type it was. (Probably either a set of daze/stun/dominate or ongoing damage.) But one save on any effect of their choice is probably better.
I primarily play Heroic tier, so save ends effects are relatively rare.
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
In reference to gunblades; I was refering to the archaic gun-blades that were produced for a short time in history. A "pistol sword" is the more acurate term, although it is just as often a dagger, ax, or blugeoning weapon. There is a wikipedia article on it if you are interested. I know of final fantasy gunblades, but I have not played the game, so I'm not sure how exactly they are used. It is probably a very small niche, but it's something you should consider, a sorceror/gunmage and rogue/gunmage hybrid seems like a natural combination. MBA is based off your strength, and thier are no ranged calsses that use strength as a primary, so you sohuld not be worried about it allowing them a MBA. This general rule is true of any class that does not have strength as a primary, ie. any wizard can make a MBA with his staff, but it will likely only hit on a 20. Any build that can achieve an at-will as a MBA is of course exempt form this rule. Daggers are additionally exempt because they already count as a ranged weapon.
In reference to a magic supressor; Yes, you stop being hidden when you attack. Game mechanically you lose invisability and/or break stealth. Thats why I said for RP purposes. A rogue slitting someone throat in the night with a dagger is breaking his stealth for anyone that can see him (including the target), but killing someone with a gun would potentially alert everyone in the castle/camp/dungeon. The item doesn't change the basic game mechanic, it just adds a way to RP assasinations with firearms.
In reference to gunblades; I was refering to the archaic gun-blades that were produced for a short time in history. A "pistol sword" is the more acurate term, although it is just as often a dagger, ax, or blugeoning weapon. There is a wikipedia article on it if you are interested. I know of final fantasy gunblades, but I have not played the game, so I'm not sure how exactly they are used.
Ah, one of those. A pistol with what amounts to a knife incorporated into the design, usually on single shot pistols so you still technically had a weapon after firing your shot. (Not a very good weapon, of course...)
The term 'gunblade' threw me off, sorry. The Final Fantasy weapon is essentially a sword with a revolver part incorporated into it. When the attacker swings, they pull the trigger, which sets off a charge that makes the blade vibrate, apparently acting as a kind of chainsaw (in effect.) Given, that's the official description of them and... that wouldn't work in reality. But neither would throwing fireballs on a whim.
It is probably a very small niche, but it's something you should consider, a sorceror/gunmage and rogue/gunmage hybrid seems like a natural combination.
There's always the option of just wielding a derringer in their off-hand. (Or wielding a dagger in their off-hand and a ranged weapon in their main hand.) After all, isn't the stereotypical pirate carrying a cutlass in their right and a flintlock pistol in their left?
no ranged calsses that use strength as a primary
Archer Warlord can use strength as a primary. I even mentioned in the House Rules section that DM may wish to allow archer warlords to apply their feature (using Strength for RBAs) on firearms. (Probably fluffed as something like holding the gun steady or being able to use a larger caliber weapon... *shrug*)
Any build that can achieve an at-will as a MBA is of course exempt form this rule. Daggers are additionally exempt because they already count as a ranged weapon.
I would probably phrase the item as "Property: You can make melee attacks with this weapon. If you do, treat the weapon as a dagger for that attack. You cannot make thrown attacks with this weapon." (Though a mounted bayonet would be closer to a spear...)
Frankly, it's just too complicated a situation for me to bother with right now. As I said, I want to ensure the equipment and powers I have already are balanced before adding too many niche items.
And by 'balanced', I mean "not so powerful as to make all other options worthless by comparison" and "not so weak that no one in their right mind would take it." (Essentially, in CharOps terms, I want to avoid red and gold powers.)
In reference to a magic supressor; Yes, you stop being hidden when you attack. Game mechanically you lose invisability and/or break stealth. Thats why I said for RP purposes. A rogue slitting someone throat in the night with a dagger is breaking his stealth for anyone that can see him (including the target), but killing someone with a gun would potentially alert everyone in the castle/camp/dungeon. The item doesn't change the basic game mechanic, it just adds a way to RP assasinations with firearms.
If it doesn't change the game mechanics, why should I charge the gunmage extra? Though I suppose a mundane item would be cheap enough to not really be an issue...
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
