I will chalk the disagreement up to differing methods of play. No comment on the players.
As for the time issue, I'm basing it on the recordings you provided and matching it up with my last session.
In my last session, it took the players an hour to leave town. If I had asked them for details about the world, it probably would have taken twice as long (especially once you include the nice argument with a traveling merchant and tavern bar keep). And we were only able to play for about 4 hours.
Now we're getting somewhere. The likelihood of spending an hour in a town doing anything in my playstyle is unlikely. It probably approaches zero. Take that hour back and use it to ask questions and get answers to generate more action and engagement. Unless the town's getting blown up that night, it ain't getting a single second of "screen time."
@ Keripalli: Before this goes any further, you realize that I'm not the guy who fires up my laptop and flies completely by the seat of my pants, right? Lots of assumptions being thrown at me lately, so if I'm being oversensitive, I apologize in advance.
What was this thread about anyway? Maybe we should just get a chat channel and have at it.
To the bolded part: Why? I personally consider the town as part of the adventure. Not just a Wal-Mart where players get their s*** and get out (be it quests or items). I felt I had more than enough engagement from my players while they tried to cheat a merchant and two tavern patrons out of their gold at a game of black jack. The ensuing arguments between PCs and NPCs and stalling for time by the PCs was quite fun for all involved. ....the player really really REALLY did not want to lose that 50 gold pieces. xD
Also, my players might actually blow the town up. You never know with them.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
... it imposed something that a DM might not be comfortable imposing on or even suggesting to a player.
That's a hidden gem right there Centauri.
As a player, I hate being charmed / poisoned / imprisoned / kidnapped / blackmailed... namely because I felt like I was losing an element of control over my PC. On the flipside, when I am allowed to be the one to decide some gruesome fate I am often far meaner to my PC than the DM is (suffering building character and all that) in large part because I felt like I had a greater stake in the narrative outcome that way.
To the bolded part: Why? I personally consider the town as part of the adventure. Not just a Wal-Mart where players get their s*** and get out (be it quests or items). I felt I had more than enough engagement from my players while they tried to cheat a merchant and two tavern patrons out of their gold at a game of black jack. The ensuing arguments between PCs and NPCs and stalling for time by the PCs was quite fun for all involved. ....the player really really REALLY did not want to lose that 50 gold pieces. xD
Also, my players might actually blow the town up. You never know with them.
Unless the adventure's in the town, then the adventurers are out on an adventure and that's what gets screen time. I got 4 hours. It's going to be very sharply focused on actual adventuring.
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
To the bolded part: Why? I personally consider the town as part of the adventure. Not just a Wal-Mart where players get their s*** and get out (be it quests or items). I felt I had more than enough engagement from my players while they tried to cheat a merchant and two tavern patrons out of their gold at a game of black jack. The ensuing arguments between PCs and NPCs and stalling for time by the PCs was quite fun for all involved. ....the player really really REALLY did not want to lose that 50 gold pieces. xD
Also, my players might actually blow the town up. You never know with them.
Unless the adventure's in the town, then the adventurers are out on an adventure and that's what gets screen time. I got 4 hours. It's going to be very sharply focused on actual adventuring.
Interesting approach. Though I still prefer to try and approach every single part of the session as the adventure, no matter where they're at. Thus, if I asked them about everything, you're looking at too much time to get anywhere significant.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
Interesting approach. Though I still prefer to try and approach every single part of the session as the adventure, no matter where they're at. Thus, if I asked them about everything, you're looking at too much time to get anywhere significant.
Yes, I used to do that, too, and a lot of DMs still do. Not my cup of tea as a player or DM. I'd rather not play than talk to barkeeps and go shopping in town. Unless the adventure happens to be in the town, of course (which I rarely choose as a location).
My take on this is that D&D is nice and broad and useful for a lot of styles, but it does a few things well. Among those things is location-based fantasy adventuring. Anything else is a gamble because D&D was not specifically built for those things. Horror, mystery, and other genres come to mind. Now, the DM can build up a bunch of non-transferrable skills to make those genres work, but it's still hit or miss in my opinion, especially given there are other games that do it better. The old burn down the tavern routine might be a way better scenario in Fiasco than in D&D. By focusing on what D&D does best, you improve your chances at a better game.
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
I will chalk the disagreement up to differing methods of play. No comment on the players.
As for the time issue, I'm basing it on the recordings you provided and matching it up with my last session.
In my last session, it took the players an hour to leave town. If I had asked them for details about the world, it probably would have taken twice as long (especially once you include the nice argument with a traveling merchant and tavern bar keep). And we were only able to play for about 4 hours.
Now we're getting somewhere. The likelihood of spending an hour in a town doing anything in my playstyle is unlikely. It probably approaches zero. Take that hour back and use it to ask questions and get answers to generate more action and engagement. Unless the town's getting blown up that night, it ain't getting a single second of "screen time."
@ Keripalli: Before this goes any further, you realize that I'm not the guy who fires up my laptop and flies completely by the seat of my pants, right? Lots of assumptions being thrown at me lately, so if I'm being oversensitive, I apologize in advance.
What was this thread about anyway? Maybe we should just get a chat channel and have at it.
To the bolded part: Why? I personally consider the town as part of the adventure. Not just a Wal-Mart where players get their s*** and get out (be it quests or items). I felt I had more than enough engagement from my players while they tried to cheat a merchant and two tavern patrons out of their gold at a game of black jack. The ensuing arguments between PCs and NPCs and stalling for time by the PCs was quite fun for all involved. ....the player really really REALLY did not want to lose that 50 gold pieces. xD
Also, my players might actually blow the town up. You never know with them.
I first want to say. "Wow."
I never expected my question to get so much response, and there's a lot to take in (6 Whole FRIGGIN PAGES) but what i'll get out now is in response to this and other things.
I love towns, one thing I like about my players is they make great use of towns. (most of the times) The last two towns they went to, they've set an inn on fire and in another one our Rogue tried to sneak out of the inn and jump from the roof of the inn to the roof of another building, he failed, but it was a good effort.
I also remember some stating that I was trying to slow my players down, not so. I think the flow of our players/playing is good. I just don't really like how he tries to loot everything whenver he can, even during combat, I feel like it makes things a little choppy for the other plays. (That and he always tries to loot first, but then again he's a rogue, he's greedy.)
I saw someone posting about having the PCs enter a town and seeing a thief loose his hands for a crime, I liked that, might make our Rogue think twice before doing anything illegal.
Lastly I thought I should give you some background on our players, and my own skill as a DM. Which pretty much doesn't exist. I "volunteered" to be the DM of our group becuase I had the most understand of the rules. (Hardly.) And nobody else wanted to do it. I do enjoy being the DM, but I do often feel as if i'm tripping over my lack of experince alot.
All in all my goal for this group is to have them have fun. (Try saying that ten times fast.) But at the same time I want to present a Dynamic world full of challanges and ingaging stories. That sorta stuff.
Once again thank you all for your great interst in my problem.
I saw someone posting about having the PCs enter a town and seeing a thief loose his hands for a crime, I liked that, might make our Rogue think twice before doing anything illegal.
That's a cool image - in fact, our DM just did that for flavor in a game I'm in right now - but it's risky. Be prepared for the player to call your bluff. If you're not bluffing, you should have some idea of what you'll do with a handless PC.
Lastly I thought I should give you some background on our players, and my own skill as a DM. Which pretty much doesn't exist. I "volunteered" to be the DM of our group becuase I had the most understand of the rules. (Hardly.) And nobody else wanted to do it. I do enjoy being the DM, but I do often feel as if i'm tripping over my lack of experince alot.
Good for you for trying.
You'll make some mistakes, but that's okay. You can have a fun game even if lots of the rules get missed or misapplied. Keep asking questions here. We're idealistic enough to believe that we can help people out of the problems we've encountered.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
I saw someone posting about having the PCs enter a town and seeing a thief loose his hands for a crime, I liked that, might make our Rogue think twice before doing anything illegal.
That's a cool image - in fact, our DM just did that for flavor in a game I'm in right now - but it's risky. Be prepared for the player to call your bluff. If you're not bluffing, you should have some idea of what you'll do with a handless PC.
Lastly I thought I should give you some background on our players, and my own skill as a DM. Which pretty much doesn't exist. I "volunteered" to be the DM of our group becuase I had the most understand of the rules. (Hardly.) And nobody else wanted to do it. I do enjoy being the DM, but I do often feel as if i'm tripping over my lack of experince alot.
Good for you for trying.
You'll make some mistakes, but that's okay. You can have a fun game even if lots of the rules get missed or misapplied. Keep asking questions here. We're idealistic enough to believe that we can help people out of the problems we've encountered.
*nod* We play every Sat for about 4-5hours (Till we pass out) but i'm a little worried about our group's make up. (Rogue, Rogue, Mage, and Ranger that comes Bi-weekly) No heals, no Strong Tank, just squishyness. We're playing the Red Box Adventure to get us started and, after two encounters they've run out of healing surges and had to retreat and come back another day, secondly i'm worried they're not playing smart, they've blown their daily powers off on Minions who they know are minions, I don't want to tell them not to do that, but when they hit harder areas without their Dailies, i'm worried.
*nod* We play every Sat for about 4-5hours (Till we pass out) but i'm a little worried about our group's make up. (Rogue, Rogue, Mage, and Ranger that comes Bi-weekly) No heals, no Strong Tank, just squishyness. We're playing the Red Box Adventure to get us started and, after two encounters they've run out of healing surges and had to retreat and come back another day, secondly i'm worried they're not playing smart, they've blown their daily powers off on Minions who they know are minions, I don't want to tell them not to do that, but when they hit harder areas without their Dailies, i'm worried.
As I read your post, you're worried that their characters are going to die. These concerns are deserving of their own thread. There are other threads addresing a similar problem, because it's a common problem, but we can always use another - because it's a common problem.
One traditional approach is to let them play how they want, and not change anything. They'll get to a point that they haven't prepared for and they'll fail, which traditionally means "die." Then they'll make new characters and start again, presumably having learned valuable lessons about strategy.
Look for ways to make failure mean something other than "death." I'm not familiar with the Red Box Adventure, and I'm guessing it's mostly about combat, but generally there's someone with a goal other than killing the characters. Increase the priority of this goal in the mind of that enemy, so that it exceeds the priority of killing the characters. Then, if the PCs find that they're not up to the task, the worst that happens is that the enemy accomplishes the primary goal and the PCs fail. They can still learn from this failure, it can still sting (perhaps even more than character death), but the characters don't need to die.
Make the failure, whatever it is, interesting. Don't just close the door, but leave open the possibility that the characters can mitigate the failure or set it right. Even PC death can be set right in D&D, but if their town has been overrun, or an object stolen, or an NPC kidnapped, there are clear next steps for the PCs to pursue.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
*nod* We play every Sat for about 4-5hours (Till we pass out) but i'm a little worried about our group's make up. (Rogue, Rogue, Mage, and Ranger that comes Bi-weekly) No heals, no Strong Tank, just squishyness. We're playing the Red Box Adventure to get us started and, after two encounters they've run out of healing surges and had to retreat and come back another day, secondly i'm worried they're not playing smart, they've blown their daily powers off on Minions who they know are minions, I don't want to tell them not to do that, but when they hit harder areas without their Dailies, i'm worried.
As I read your post, you're worried that their characters are going to die. These concerns are deserving of their own thread. There are other threads addresing a similar problem, because it's a common problem, but we can always use another - because it's a common problem.
One traditional approach is to let them play how they want, and not change anything. They'll get to a point that they haven't prepared for and they'll fail, which traditionally means "die." Then they'll make new characters and start again, presumably having learned valuable lessons about strategy.
Look for ways to make failure mean something other than "death." I'm not familiar with the Red Box Adventure, and I'm guessing it's mostly about combat, but generally there's someone with a goal other than killing the characters. Increase the priority of this goal in the mind of that enemy, so that it exceeds the priority of killing the characters. Then, if the PCs find that they're not up to the task, the worst that happens is that the enemy accomplishes the primary goal and the PCs fail. They can still learn from this failure, it can still sting (perhaps even more than character death), but the characters don't need to die.
Make the failure, whatever it is, interesting. Don't just close the door, but leave open the possibility that the characters can mitigate the failure or set it right. Even PC death can be set right in D&D, but if their town has been overrun, or an object stolen, or an NPC kidnapped, there are clear next steps for the PCs to pursue.
*nod* Yeah, i've read up on that, but i'm tryng to avoid custom content due to my lack of experince, but uh, the Rogue had gotten his character made by his... "Friend" who has D&D Experince cause he wants a well built character.
Quick Fingers Minor action You can steal things using a minor action with a thievery check.
Is on his character sheet, I can't find this in the Player's Hand Book 1, so I thought this deserved some mention here, due to it's nature. So that's what I mean by him stealing every chance he gets, he uses it on monsters he's fighting, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
