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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 5:10PM
#111
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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The concept they should keep in reference to minions is hit point thresholds, so unless you exceed it the creature or object stills lives or exists. If you only do half damage, then it still lives or exists. This mechanism can be placed in DM guide as another way to represent hit points to keep the book keeping simple, or extend it into other areas. Whether they call it minions does not matter.
The hit points thresholds can start with 1 to whatever value the DM wants.
This works, but only as long as Damage scales up to keep up with it.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 5:16PM
#112
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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Yep, that is the trick, you need to consider how high a hit point threshold is too much. But I have resused that concept for multiple things, because 1hp "minions" at higher level heroic or above did not make sense to me. I would rather go with a lower hit point version of a giant, etc.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 5:23PM
#113
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One of the major concepts for DDN is supposed to be "bounded accuracy", and if it works like its supposed to, then minions will not be needed in DDN.
As I pointed out in my post, even if bounded accuracy 'works' to have consistent attack/defense regardless of level with only dmg a level variance; that design only allows you to have kobolds in the orc den, when what DMs want is kobold minions in the kobold warren, and orc minions in the orc den. Even if a solution is found for that, minions still need to exist as rules that are needed for the DM to run them effectively, no wholesale defeating of the minions by the mage clearance spells, no rolling of dmg, no tracking of hit points, no wierd powers/conditions trackings. Simulationists can go off on those role features all they want for being gamist, but what does not makes sense is a DM tracking all that BS on 16 kobold snipers, and 32 orcs in the horde simply to keep it 'real'.
Why am I concerned about bounded accuracy not working? It is because the current playtest already started breaking it retreating from the original vision. Skill levels increasing when monsters do not so the sneaky kobolds get exposed, and availability of attack bonuses increasers as pointed out in this thread. In order for it to work monsters need to have the same capabilities as the PC's so the DM can keep up with them; but no DM wants to build monsters like a PC, picking out armor and weapons, giving feats, leveling skills, etc. simply because it takes too much time to do that on the fly. But I do not see that they will ever nerf those PC features simply because players want to improve their character.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 5:35PM
#114
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Yep, that is the trick, you need to consider how high a hit point threshold is too much. But I have resused that concept for multiple things, because 1hp "minions" at higher level heroic or above did not make sense to me. I would rather go with a lower hit point version of a giant, etc.
As far as the player is concerned, the minions have HPs equal to whatever the damage of the hit was. As soon as you make the HP number higher than the minimum damage on a hit, the DM needs to track those that took a weak hit, which defeats the purpose of using a minion rather than just a weak lower level monster. If the minimum damage possible is 1d4 dagger hits, then the minimum HP is 1. HP needs to be thought of a percentile measure of how many hits it takes to get it down to zero. A HP of 1 just means that 100% of any hit gets you down to zero. If you do 10 dmg and fight a 100HP monster, then it should be thought of as the PCs only dmg 10% of the monster at a time.
I did stumble across a rule (forget which book) saying minion HP is tier rather than 1, but all the minions on DDI are 1 HP even the lvl 34 minion.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 6:05PM
#115
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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for space
Show
One of the major concepts for DDN is supposed to be "bounded accuracy", and if it works like its supposed to, then minions will not be needed in DDN.
As I pointed out in my post, even if bounded accuracy 'works' to have consistent attack/defense regardless of level with only dmg a level variance; that design only allows you to have kobolds in the orc den, when what DMs want is kobold minions in the kobold warren, and orc minions in the orc den. Even if a solution is found for that, minions still need to exist as rules that are needed for the DM to run them effectively, no wholesale defeating of the minions by the mage clearance spells, no rolling of dmg, no tracking of hit points, no wierd powers/conditions trackings. Simulationists can go off on those role features all they want for being gamist, but what does not makes sense is a DM tracking all that BS on 16 kobold snipers, and 32 orcs in the horde simply to keep it 'real'.
Why am I concerned about bounded accuracy not working? It is because the current playtest already started breaking it retreating from the original vision. Skill levels increasing when monsters do not so the sneaky kobolds get exposed, and availability of attack bonuses increasers as pointed out in this thread. In order for it to work monsters need to have the same capabilities as the PC's so the DM can keep up with them; but no DM wants to build monsters like a PC, picking out armor and weapons, giving feats, leveling skills, etc. simply because it takes too much time to do that on the fly. But I do not see that they will ever nerf those PC features simply because players want to improve their character.
Look, I stand by my belief that "minions" will not be necessary if bounded accuracy works like its supposed to. You disagree.
Since the playtest is far from over, there isn't enough evidence for either of us to argue with. So unless your issue is with me simply having my own opinion... we can let this go.
(edit: ... and thanks to Garanthos, and also to Qmark for the link)
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 7:13PM
#116
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Look, I stand by my belief that "minions" will not be necessary if bounded accuracy works like its supposed to. You disagree.
Since the playtest is far from over, there isn't enough evidence for either of us to argue with. So unless your issue is with me simply having my own opinion... we can let this go.
(edit: ... and thanks to Garanthos, and also to Qmark for the link)
sure except that A) they are breaking the idea of bounded acceracy now with BAB and B) that only works if you dont want low level minons, if a "minon" has to be 5 levels lower then you then you have to be level 5 to have minons, what if I want to have a level 1 party fight minons?
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 7:28PM
#117
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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Look, I stand by my belief that "minions" will not be necessary if bounded accuracy works like its supposed to. You disagree.
Since the playtest is far from over, there isn't enough evidence for either of us to argue with. So unless your issue is with me simply having my own opinion... we can let this go.
(edit: ... and thanks to Garanthos, and also to Qmark for the link)
sure except that A) they are breaking the idea of bounded acceracy now with BAB and B) that only works if you dont want low level minons, if a "minon" has to be 5 levels lower then you then you have to be level 5 to have minons, what if I want to have a level 1 party fight minons?
The are breaking what you thought they meant by 'bounded accuracy' - not what bounded accuracy is.
Bounded does not mean unchanging. Bounded means subject to limits.
And I'm not really sure what the relevance of the "must be 5 level lower" bit is. A pseudominion can be any level - as long as it a) can threaten the party and b) dies to one hit.
Using that argument - most of the low level monsters are minions now. To a party of any level - including 1st.
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 8:00PM
#118
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And I'm not really sure what the relevance of the "must be 5 level lower" bit is.
Since dmg is the only thing that is 'supposed' to lvl, how many levels do you need to go down to get to half average dmg of monsters at your level yet the same accuracy as your level, since it was said that lower level monster is supposed to have accuracy just less dmg.
If that number is -5 lvls, then what do you do for minions for the first five levels? How do you make a minion of the same race if they do not exist at lower levels and there are no rules to down level them? I do not see this being answered. Where are my kobold minions that play with my kobolds. Where are my orc minions that play with orcs? The answer of play your kobolds with the orcs, was not what was asked.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 8:30PM
#119
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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And I'm not really sure what the relevance of the "must be 5 level lower" bit is.
Since dmg is the only thing that is 'supposed' to lvl, how many levels do you need to go down to get to half average dmg of monsters at your level yet the same accuracy as your level, since it was said that lower level monster is supposed to have accuracy just less dmg.
If that number is -5 lvls, then what do you do for minions for the first five levels? How do you make a minion of the same race if they do not exist at lower levels and there are no rules to down level them? I do not see this being answered. Where are my kobold minions that play with my kobolds. Where are my orc minions that play with orcs? The answer of play your kobolds with the orcs, was not what was asked.
Why is half average damage a magical number?
Sure - it was part of the experience calculation for a minion to justify it's cost of 1/4 a regular. But it is not something inherent in the minon concept - just the way the numbers worked out in the 4E implementation.
In your mind - it can't be a minion if it doesn't do precisely half average damage?
To put this another way: Do you feel you need the precise mechanics of the minion for some reason - or do you want something that plays the same as a minion in your game?
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 20, 2012 - 6:03AM
#120
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They could balance it for a party of 5 minions, it does not matter, if it is 4 that they are balanced for. They do need to have a balance so that the DM knows how many to use before they risk a TPK.
The need for a precise dmg number rather than a dmg die is solely so the DM does not have to roll. But you can ignore that for now that minions are a template of things that make them easier for the DM to run, and tell me how bounded accuracy supports the concept of deadly attack/defense but weak dmg dealing and taking - for the SAME creatures already in my encounter.
You have stated as have others that bounded accuracy is the solution, I am trying to get an answer to of how to use peer monsters with the minions at lvl1 and at lvl5. I want to use minions they way published adventures have, which is to enlarge the party of the same creature by mixing them in with the 'real' creature. I do not want to run kobold minions with orcs.
So if bounded accuracy is fixed to 'work as intended' tell me how I can have kobold minions with my lv1 kobolds and orc minions with my lvl5 orc horde.
If you realize it is not possible to do that, then we can can go back to discussing why they need to be a template so the DM can run them effectively, which at the end of the day overrides bounded accuracy inherently supporting them or not.
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