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9 months ago ::
Sep 18, 2012 - 6:32PM
#91
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Which is why it is a lvl5 minion orc in 4e, because a lvl5 minion would shred a lvl1 PC. But the response was lower level monsters are minions in 5e, still waiting for someone to answer how to do an orc minion that can fight with orcs in 5e to get average half dmg with same attack/defense as a lvl5 orc threat. But the response seems to have changed from it is possible to do as is in 5e - to don't want them in the game because it is a gamist fantasy trope not realistic.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 18, 2012 - 6:37PM
#92
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2006
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Minions were an awesome idea. Primarily this was because the system was so messed up that low level monsters didn't stand a chance, and the amount of dice rolling and power curve was insane.
So, I'm kind of mixed on this. I think minions are great for a system where weak monsters can't do anything and the power curve is whacked out. However, if the system actually works reasonably well and weak monsters matter, then they would probably be redundant.
In either case, an improved form of minions (or something similar) would be a good idea, I think. Anything which simplifies, improves, and expands a game and makes it more fun is generally a good thing.
Great thread.
--David
David L. Dostaler
Author, Challenger RPG (free)
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 4:57AM
#93
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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Which is why it is a lvl5 minion orc in 4e, because a lvl5 minion would shred a lvl1 PC. But the response was lower level monsters are minions in 5e, still waiting for someone to answer how to do an orc minion that can fight with orcs in 5e to get average half dmg with same attack/defense as a lvl5 orc threat. But the response seems to have changed from it is possible to do as is in 5e - to don't want them in the game because it is a gamist fantasy trope not realistic.
... because if the party is an equal "level" to a band of orcs, then they shouldn't be strolling through and one-shot killing them... it should be more of a "even" fight.
However, if that same party went to clear out the den of kobolds that used to bother their hometown at "level 1"... then they would be killing the individual kobolds pretty easily, but the threat would come from the kobolds' "power in numbers" mechanic.
The idea of "bounded accuracy" is supposed to be that the to-hit & AC bonuses aren't supposed to be spiraling off into infinity... therefore, the idea is that a low-level monster (or PC) can still "hit" a high-level PC (or monster) and do damage... so a large number of low-level beings can still be a threat to a high-level being.
This is a link to an article that discusses the goals of Bounded Accuracy better than I can
Show
Personally, I think its a little too early to just cry "Impossible!", and quit... this is only the second playtest packet, and a few months in.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 5:10AM
#94
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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Since the concept of minions is very simple, there should be no reason not to include it in the monster manual, or DM guide. They did have specific uses where the simple book keeping was a benefit to the DM. Typically, they can be represented as an alternative method to swarms, spawns or appendages from a creature, or even part of a trap. In theory it could carry over into spells as well, like summoning a mass of lightning orbs to protect the wizard.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 5:40AM
#95
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2005
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All it really takes is something to the effect of
"If you wish the monsters to die if they take any damage, lower their damage to the minimum possible and divide their XP value by 4."
I use lowest level of damage possible because of the much lower HP thresholds we have in Next. You can kill a PC with 2 average hits. Making them do minimum damage makes the lower PC Hp levels doable, average damage is a pretty big hit from some creatures.
But honestly I don't see the need. There are a bunch of plenty weak creatures. If you want them to be easier, take away some of the equipment if they have any, give them a weaker weapon or have them always do minimum damage and less than average HP. Want to make them tougher, give them platemail and maximize their HP.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 6:17AM
#96
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... because if the party is an equal "level" to a band of orcs, then they shouldn't be strolling through and one-shot killing them... it should be more of a "even" fight.
And that 'opinion' being hardcoded into the game requires the DM to delete a great scene in many great literary works. Are you going to tell Tolkien that it is not realistic for the fellowship to be one-hitting orcs? That in reality the fellowship should have died at the point and the book should have stopped? Are you going to tell your players we don't play that game here? Fine at your table if that is your rule, then DONT USE MINIONS, but fans of fantasy genre want to do what is done in their books. 4e can also use weaker monsters of another type, the orcs can already have goblin slaves, the minion template exists so you can make ones of the same creature as the rest of the encounter as that is their most effective use.
Well aware of that article, it could be point by point destructed, but I will just pick one point to demonstrate as I don't need to waste time on the rest. The bit about the doors having variant DC? That very point is specifically already covered in the rules how to use DC, that article was completely at odds with the rules on DC, and been debunked on the forum as an article writer that needs to read his manuals. Not worth discussing further and neither is the rest of the article. Start another thread if you want people to debate that article, they can completely deconstruct it.
If bounded accuracy allows you to to recreate a 4e minion without a special rule, then it means that attack and defense are based solely on the monster, their armour and weapon, (yet nobody has deciphered a pattern rule in the monster library demonstrate that to be the case) and not based on their presumed level to offer an at level challenge as it is in 4e, where attack/defense are a function of their role and level. Even if that is done, for it to work, players must never have their attack/defense increased at level ups or thru magic weapons that monsters do not have. It means that lvl1 orcs must be available to be the minions for the lvl5 orcs. I see none of these being or staying true to the ideal of bounded accuracy, but that is what it must be for it to work. In order for bounded accuracy to work, the player needs to give up their ability to improve their PC, and I do not see them enforcing that on a player because improving your PC is a legacy of D&D that is not going to go away.
But even if bounded accuracy did work, how many levels down do you need to go to get half average damage, and what do you do for minions at the lower levels? You need to replace the damage roll with the half average damage to speed up DM play, you need to take the HP down to 1 to speed up DM play, and you need to remove the dmg on miss so the mage cannot clear the field of minions with an area attack, and you need to nerf their XP. All of those features require a special rule for the minion template regardless of if bounded accuracy works. If the argument is don't waste printing the templated minions in valuable page space, then simply list the template on how to on the fly make a minion in the book, and make it clear that just as you don't have to use any monster in the book, you are under no obligation as a DM to use the minion template even if your players want you to do so.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 6:55AM
#97
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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Oh, for goodness sake. What is your issue? ... I didn't put it up there to deconstruct the article... I was just making it easy to reference, because my "summing up" may not have expressed their intent as clearly as the original article did.
... and "Tolkien's Fellowship" were not a fair fight for the orcs... they would have been considered very high-level characters, much higher than the 5th level orcs... therefore, with "bounded accuracy" the Fellowship one-shots the orcs, but the orcs are still a threat in great numbers... like an army of orcs.
If the orc army were to go by minion rules... then the "lvl 1" soldiers manning the walls would never even hit the advancing army of orc minions, because they'd have to be scaled as lvl 15-20 orc minions in order to "threaten" the Fellowship.
... and why are you telling me not to use minions? I said that they were one of my favorite features of 4E... and I like 4E... but we're not talking about 4E, right now... we're talking about DDN. One of the major concepts for DDN is supposed to be "bounded accuracy", and if it works like its supposed to, then minions will not be needed in DDN.
Since the the playtest is nowhere near complete, then its too early to just assume that "bounded accuracy" can't work. There is still plenty of time for the devs to find a way to make their original vision a reality. The fact that you can't figure out how to make it work doesn't mean that it is guaranteed to fail... it just means that they're lucky that you're not a member of their development team.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 8:46AM
#98
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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So my heros are level 1 and an ogre lv 5 is made to act as a solo he wont work as a minion when the group is level 10 he will be too complex and interesting. There is value and simplicity in building them to suit a function and labelling that function
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 8:54AM
#99
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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So my heros are level 1 and an ogre lv 5 is made to act as a solo he wont work as a minion when the group is level 10 he will be too complex and interesting. There is value and simplicity in building them to suit a function and labelling that function
I understand the value & simplicity of proper labeling.
I also see the value of building something to suit a function... but I don't agree that simplicity is always one of the values gained.
I confess that I do not understand how the lvl 5 ogre is too interesting to fill the role of "minion" for a group of lvl 10 adventurers.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 19, 2012 - 9:53AM
#100
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Key word complexities and details are reasonable to include in something with presumed staying power these details interfere in a minion
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