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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 3:39PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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As Iserith pointed out, the group currently playing has never played LIM together before and some have never played LIM at all. Myself for example, so considering this, I understand why Iserith didn't open the gates completely. I figure as we go (we have 2-3 more sessions or something) more control of the narrative will be given and maybe in the last session we can give a really good example of what LIM can do. For now though, we've seen an example, (though it might not have been a perfect one) of what LIM is.
I can see your points though Krusk, but this was the first attempt of 4, and you should really listen to the entire session before passing judgement. As the session progresses, things evolve between DM and party.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 3:47PM
#42
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I understand why Iserith didn't completely open the gates completely. I figure as we go (we have 2-3 more sessions or something) more control of the narrative will be given and maybe in the last session we can give a really good example of what LIM can do. For now though, we've seen an example, (though it might not have been a perfect one) of what LIM is.
It should probably be noted as well that this style is far easier to pull off in person where I can draw a map on the fly as needed. Online, there are some limitations, though I have plenty of generic maps, creatures, and pogs to pull out based on where the players take me. Of course, we can certainly start going into Theater of the Mind territory which admittedly isn't something most 4e'ers are signing up for when they sit down to play D&D. Though I'm game if you guys are!
As the session progresses, things evolve between DM and party.
Interesting thought - what do you mean exactly? Any examples? (I haven't listened to the recordings. I'd probably be mortified at things I say, especially once the rum kicked in.)
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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 3:57PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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Of course I can't pull any examples, now that I've said that lol ! But I guess it was a learning experience and the players were getting their footing. As the session goes the group becomes more comfortable and things flow better. That long pause at the start of the session when no one wanted to speak is an example I guess of what I mean. Later on in the session whenever you asked something the players jumped on it.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 4:10PM
#44
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Of course I can't pull any examples, now that I've said that lol ! But I guess it was a learning experience and the players were getting their footing. As the session goes the group becomes more comfortable and things flow better. That long pause at the start of the session when no one wanted to speak is an example I guess of what I mean. Later on in the session whenever you asked something the players jumped on it.
Yeah, ain't that always the way?
Centauri clued me into an idea a while back - creative warmups for improv actors. Do some creative exercise before you act and you get into the "open mode" where things just flow. I think the Q&A at the beginning of the session helps with this. Though nothing's ever a guarantee when trying to influence other people, of course. But once everyone's more or less in that open mode, things just come to you and you're not afraid to put it out there, especially when the rest of the group is accepting of everyone elses' ideas.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 4:16PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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Of course I can't pull any examples, now that I've said that lol ! But I guess it was a learning experience and the players were getting their footing. As the session goes the group becomes more comfortable and things flow better. That long pause at the start of the session when no one wanted to speak is an example I guess of what I mean. Later on in the session whenever you asked something the players jumped on it.
Yeah, ain't that always the way?
Centauri clued me into an idea a while back - creative warmups for improv actors. Do some creative exercise before you act and you get into the "open mode" where things just flow. I think the Q&A at the beginning of the session helps with this. Though nothing's ever a guarantee when trying to influence other people, of course. But once everyone's more or less in that open mode, things just come to you and you're not afraid to put it out there, especially when the rest of the group is accepting of everyone elses' ideas.
I'm back in improv classes, after years, and I was introduced to a warm-up that might work for roleplaying, especially LIM.
It's called "Magic Box" for it's cheesy trappings, but basically, you're given a location - "jungle island," say - and you spend 60 seconds or so pulling out of that box everything you can think of that might appear in that location. You can try for as many objects as you can think of, or you can visualize each one for a moment before moving on. I make no guarantees, but it's worth a try. Just hearing the ideas and getting them out there might be enough to help spur creativity when it comes to imagining what the characters are seeing or what they might want to interact with.
Of course, I'm not so sure how well it would work over Skype. Ideally, you sort of hear everyone else's ideas going on around you, but I think it can work well by oneself.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 4:28PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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And as far as "Lazy DMing" is concerned. I think its just that Lunar and you have two different styles of DMing. Having tried a very planning heavy approach, which correct me if I'm wrong Lunar, is what you use, I find that it does in fact take a lot of work and could hardly be catergorized as lazy DMing. It takes hours, sometimes days of work to design a dungeon, plant clues, come up with NPC dialouge and read aloud text. Together it makes running the actual session a lot easier on you when game day comes. However, it also requires you to plan contingencies for whatever the PCs attempt. Which is arguably very very difficult. However, the end result is usually quite fantastic. I've planned out plenty of dungeons crawls with little bits of info scattered here an there that hint at what's to come, and placed huge epic setpiece encounters throughout, knowing that eventually the characters would have to make it there. The end result was extremely satisfying for all of us, but really really stressful for me the whole time. I only really got to appreciate it at the end, once I got to rest my brain and quit thinking about every little detail. But this may not be an issue for you, as you sound like you've had a lot more experience DMing than I have. So maybe the real stride of the plan and play method is hit once the DM in question gets more proficient in it.
Iserith takes most of the brunt of the workload ON game day as opposed to before hand. He has to come up with things on the fly in response to player actions most of the time. Although the area has been planned out ahead of time, the monsters and other factions have their own motivations which give them vague contigencies for the PCs. However these contigencies are reactionary.
Giving more control to the PCs isn't lazy, it's just different. Some could argue that depending on PC actions it could even be a lot more work. It also prevents the DM from having to toss out pages of material because the PCs ignored that part of the area. The material flows out throughout the game. I think this approach allows for the players to be more engaged in the world, as they helped build it. The enviroment comes out mroe fully because the players are weaving it alongside the DM as it occurs. This is great in my opinion. I used to be part of an improv troupe, and the DM and player roles are very similar to such a group. You build off of what each other throws out, which usually takes the scene very far from where it began. But all in all, Its very satisfying for everyone involved.
So I see the merits in both playstyles, and do my best to bring a fusion of the two together at my table. Also, the recording of this session is really insightful and has given me quite a few good ideas as well as a bit more perspecitve on my style as a DM. Lunar if you get the chance and are able to. You should post a recording of one of your sessions. I'd love to see how you run a game as well. In fact, why not just have everyone able post recordings of their sessions? Surely we could all benefit and be entertained by seeing/hearing a bunch of different DMs play a variety of styles and game types. Of course lets do that on a different thread. This is for Island of the Frog.
I'll concede you these points. You make a lot of sense. Both are valid means I guess. I do create a lot of details for my adventures. I will say that perhaps it's harsh of me to call iserith's style "lazy".
I would love to post a recording of our session, but unfortunately, I have not the means to record nor the money to make it happen. :/
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 5:57PM
#47
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As a participant in the first game, I think it is hard to argue that this is a "railroad" - particularly since my party had already gone off in a completely different direction than these guys. If we had had recordings from both runs through the island, we would surely see a massive difference by even the end of the first session.
I think there's a few things that the DM has to put in place to get things rolling ("there is a treasure, you want it, here's the first encounter on a platter" and getting stat blocks and whatnot for all the folks on the island), but once it is rolling, it can go off in all kinds of directions based on the players' choices, actions, and what's going on in the background.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:41PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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As a participant in the first game, I think it is hard to argue that this is a "railroad" - particularly since my party had already gone off in a completely different direction than these guys.
Well of course you guys did - you didn't have Pinocchio on your team!
(Yeah, I'm playing a Pixie Shaman, refluffed as a certain spiffy-dressing cricket, and my Spirit Companion is based on a wooden puppet with a nose problem.)
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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10 months ago ::
Sep 18, 2012 - 8:12AM
#49
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Interesting coincidence - after crimsyn's first PC was infected with a slaad porwigle and later turned to stone, he opted to play a pixie leader... also reflavored. But that reflavoring is something of a spoiler, so I'll leave it at that. Creepy!
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10 months ago ::
Sep 18, 2012 - 1:36PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2005
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It will look more like it as more and more fiction gets established and it goes in directions all its own.
I'd be curious what you mean by railroad though.
We'll see next sesssion!
I look forward to seeing it pick up. I can see what you mean about it not being super LIM because its the first time for many/all of the group. I almost didn't use the word, because its got a lot of negative connotations. You had a lot of defintive plot points you wanted the game to start with. They were going to be on this island. They were going to be looking for treasure. After that they get some choices, but those are pretty hefty and set in stone. The alternative to railroad being sandbox, where you ask the players "What area are we starting in?" and "What is your main goal at the begining?". Do you plan to record them all? I'd like to get a second or future session to see where things go.
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
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