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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 2:24PM
#91
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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Lunar, one reason you might see 4E discussed a lot around here is that you're on a 4E board.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence 
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year. 
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that. 
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 2:30PM
#92
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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I don't really believe in system mastery. With table top games, there's almost no such thing. Each DM will run the game differently. You can most certainly pick up skills that transcend the borders of all games and versions of a game. But mastering the rules and concepts of the game kind of goes out the window once you bring in the DM element. Since the DM is essentially the living and breathing rulebook who can change things on a whim. There is no rule that can't be broken. The DM has a book of guidelines, but ultimately, the DM is the final authority on everything in and not in that book.
Exactly. Not playing at a level that requires the rules to act in a very precise way also means greater ease in moving from table to table.
No comment on people who felt disrespected though. All I can say is that personally, I probably would have tried to switch if the game hadn't abandoned everything that made d&d what it was. I have no problem with learning new ways to calculate things, be they treasure rewards or combat rules. But...eh...it was way more than that with 4th.
Yes, this is the point I'm making. People can tolerate only so much change when it comes to the concepts they have worked hard to understand. The trickier the concept, ironically, the more people hate to see it changed. Spellcasters were hard to balance, but people did it. 4th Edition balanced them (or tried to anyway) up-front, leaving those people no way to apply their skills.
I wonder though, is it truly that they no longer get to apply those skills, or do they just genuinely not like the new set of rules? For me, it had little to do with not being able to apply my skills. When it came to balance, I mostly only had to act in small ways. The biggest thing I ever did was ban the warlock from my table, and even that I still consider extreme and probably on some level a petty personal problem with the player who ran the character.
Oh, and I think I had to include rules on limb loss. Funnily, there's a spell that includes healing/regenerating lost limbs, but no rules on how one would lose a limb. xD lmfao
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 2:32PM
#93
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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Lunar, one reason you might see 4E discussed a lot around here is that you're on a 4E board.
I know where I am. :D
Damn dirty 4th editioners. :P lmfao
That said, I feel that the "What's a DM to do?" is trying to transcend the edition barriers and is still a generally helpful place to get advice on a broad range of subjects. Now if WotC would make boards titled "What's a DM to do in edition X", I'd go to the appropriate place...
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 2:34PM
#94
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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I wonder though, is it truly that they no longer get to apply those skills, or do they just genuinely not like the new set of rules? For me, it had little to do with not being able to apply my skills.
I'm sure it's different for everyone, but for the community as a whole, skill obsolescence seems to be a significant issue.
Oh, and I think I had to include rules on limb loss. Funnily, there's a spell that includes healing/regenerating lost limbs, but no rules on how one would lose a limb. xD lmfao
Like I said: quirks.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 2:34PM
#95
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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The advice that we offer (in the face of bitter opposition, for some reason) may be edition neutral, but you're still on a 4e board, and so people on here may favor it.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year.
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 2:51PM
#96
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2012
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So, back to the OP...
Obviously all the points about alternate goals in combat are good ones. Here are just a few random thoughts to consider:
1. Your world is a living world. If I'm evil warlord X and I heard that my best evil-buddy who was my peer in all things just got turned into dog food by some do-gooders, I might take some time to prepare accordingly. Let the PCs have "bragging rights" in terms of reputation, but let that also factor into the actions of your NPCs. By now you know your party's synergies and in-game some of those stories and tactics are probably learnable by those with the resources and inclination to study them.
2. Villains fight dirty. Split the party. Change encounter distances. Use terrain advantageously. Many historical battles allowed for underdogs to win because of clever use of terrain at the tactical level. Even a relatively bland encounter can turn troublesome if fought via ranged attacks across a ravine (maybe with the enemies on the other side trying to run off with the MacGuffin to add in an alternate goal).
3. Time is a dynamic element. It harkens back to point one, but time should matter. If the story goal is to excavate some lost ruin, then the PCs are free to putter along at their own pace. If during said excavation they are suddenly trapped by a cave-in and forced to find a way back to the surface before air runs out, things change rather drastically. It's a bit cheap to simply throw encounter after encounter at them, but when the choice between resting and pushing on has serious story implications you have upped the ante.
4. Set the encounter on your terms. PCs know when they are about to enter the lair of the dragon and have their A game ready accordingly. Are they as prepared when the dragon attacks during their friend's wedding, where they first have to run back to a guest cottage to grab their equipment before they can fight? Are they as prepared when crossing a rope bridge across a river valley?
Best of luck with those troublesome players. I know from experience that PC death (and especially the dreaded TPK) has a way of grinding the story to a halt, but don't let that plant doubt in your mind. There is always a creative way to overcome silly dice outcomes (Even if that means your party, having been trounced by the rampaging dragon, wakes up in the Shadowfell, and has until sunrise to escape before being trapped forever as ghosts...).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 3:06PM
#97
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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So, back to the OP...
Obviously all the points about alternate goals in combat are good ones. Here are just a few random thoughts to consider:
Great stuff.
I'm constantly perplexed that real, enforced time limits aren't used more often. They're a pervasive trope in adventure stories.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 3:20PM
#98
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2012
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I'm constantly perplexed that real, enforced time limits aren't used more often. They're a pervasive trope in adventure stories.
Part of this is tabletop game culture, I think. It's easy to see the "obvious" tactics when looking at a grid from a bird's eye view and running probability tables on your success.
If you really want to throw the meta-game crowd for a loop and get people's heart pumping, add a stopwatch. Give each player 15 seconds during their initiative pass to declare their actions. Any undeclared actions after 15 seconds are lost. Roll dice and move to the next character in the initiative order.
Another tried and true method is to never tell the PCs exactly what monster they face. If they're hard-core optimizers then Vegas odds are good that they have access to monster stats. Sometimes the monster's identity is obvious (chromatic dragons, most demons/devils, etc), but that doesn't mean you are obligated to give more than sensory description. There should be no way to "tell" if a man wearing chainmail and carrying an axe is a minion, standard or elite challenge. Likewise, don't be afraid to swap statlines to throw players off the metagame. You may know that the mysterious feral eladrin warped by the Feywild is just using displacer beast stats with a custom description, but your players won't be able to intuitively guess that and it will give them some pause if when they wade into combat they are facing some random mook or a serious adversary.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 3:24PM
#99
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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Another tried and true method is to never tell the PCs exactly what monster they face.
Dang, based on your last post I thought we were more sympatico. I can't recommend "gotcha" tactics like that.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 3:30PM
#100
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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Another tried and true method is to never tell the PCs exactly what monster they face.
Dang, based on your last post I thought we were more sympatico. I can't recommend "gotcha" tactics like that.
I can though. :D
One of the best ideas I ever heard came from Jean Rabe at the TSR panel at dragoncon this year.
She had a copper dragon age so much that it turned green (as one cent pieces do). And the players went in expecting a green dragon fight. What they got was something very different. xD
So very brilliant and evil. I love it.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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