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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 5:45PM
#1
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Ok, So I have a group of six players all of who are good friends and 2 who are first time players. The group has just incredible synergy. I've been DMing for about 3 years and I've never seen a party that works as well together as this one. The strikers just chew enemies up. the defenders lock down everything within the first turn (if not the first couple of rounds). The leader drops heals and buffs with pinpoint precision and the controller does an excellent job of helping the defenders stay sticky and the strikers mainting combat advantage. All characters are heavily combat optimized, which is something i'm accustomed to. The thing is they also tend to do just fine on skill challenges. None of these are bad things of course. I love to see team PC suceed and look awesome. Its probably the best part about DMing for me.
I've started adding alternate goals to combat, making failure a condition that rarely hinges on smoking team monster. LIM is probably one of the single most useful tools for mixing things up that I've found. So, the core of my issue i suppose is that I can't seem to challenge the players in combat anymore. They tear through encounters like butter. We play about a 3-4 hour session every week usually accomplishing 1-2 encounters an hour. Thing is, I've moved to having most of the encounters as PC level +3 and they STILL manage to drop everything I throw at them in record time. Its getting to the point where I have players calling me out. (Friendly of course) I've even been asked to TRY to kill their characters. However, I can't even get close.
So my real question if I had to boil it down would be- How do I make the threat of death a real issue in combat for these guys?
As it might be helpful, party composition is here:
Level 6 group (4th edition)
Strikers:
Elf Archer Ranger (eyes set on battlefield archer)
Elf Druid (not technically a striker i know, but his beast form powers and items/feats he enhances them with put him on par with our ranger, if not more)
Defenders:
Hybrid Paladin/Battlemind
Warforged Brawler Fighter
Controller:
Deva Invoker (focuses on daze and stuns)
Leader:
Artificer
Of course I know that I could just stun lock or ongoing damage them into oblivion, but that isn't fun. Not for me and especially not for them. I'm looking for a way to bring the threat back onto the field without having to DM fiat in order to challenge them. Lastly, I know it isn't the DMs job to kill PCs, but that's what I've been asked for, and I'm a big fan of giving my players the kind of game they want.
Wow thats a long post. O.o
Edit: I don't actually have any desire to kill player characters. I just want them to think they're gonna die. I want them shaking in their acrobat boots.
My monday night wouldn't be half as cool if DnD didn't exist.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 6:04PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2010
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First it's good to see you're already using alt goals. As an admitted optimizer combat is often trivial but the alt goals can keep it fresh.
As to your concern, add non-enemy threats that require players to use non-combat actions in combat.
Examples could include:
Bomb set to go off on a four round timer that requires 3-5 Thievery checks to disarm.
An icey floor that requires Acro checks to move 2+ squares or you fall prone.
A magical incantation that effectively causes them to not function as allies.
Fight in low light or sheer darkness.
Combat on a vertical face.
Combat while flying/falling, leaping from surface to surface against a much more mobile enemy.
Collapsing bridge/surface, rising tide/fire/lava.
Expanding zones that cause nasty effects.
Hope some of those help spice things up!
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 6:09PM
#3
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Man, I really want to throw together an encounter but I'm loaded up with stuff to do. Give me some fiction to work with? What's going on in the campaign? What are the players (or their characters) really into? Who is Team Bad Guy right now?
I'll try to find some time to come up with something.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 6:26PM
#4
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Thanks for the replies already. I really love Bohrdumb' s idea of forcing them to fight in some kind of collapsing building or structure, being forced to leap across debris with the key being a more mobile enemy. As for Iserith. The players have currently just arrived at an allied city under siege. One of the characters (the hybrid) is a member of the Cerulean Adepts and has been called home by her mentor to help defend the city from an encroaching far realm rift that opened inside of the city walls. The PCs currently have a few different goals. A younger soldier who hasn't seen much combat got separated from the rest of his unit somewhere in the city and they've been asked to find him (or his body, or his mutated messed up far realm version, haven't decided yet). Another goal is the rescue of the PC's mentor whom she has assured the rest of the group is alive and inside the city, probably trying to rescue members of the government from a large building in the center of the city (which is where i had the rift open). Also, a group of looters and thugs has managed to seize and secure a Cerulean Adept stockhouse full of a variety of dangerous magical artifacts and weapons and has been hampering the civilian rescue efforts and taking prisoners. Team Bad Guy is an Aboleth which originally held the PC in question as a mind slave. She thinks its been slain. Of course they don't know that the Aboleth is behind it yet. Hope that helps and wasn't too much of an information overload. Thanks for any help you can offer. 
My monday night wouldn't be half as cool if DnD didn't exist.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 6:34PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2010
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Well collapsing structures and falling debris would be great here. Each round drop a 3x3 hunk of stone on the ground. Maybe mark off your grid by numbering the x and y axis and roll die to determine where it falls. Think the siege of Osgiliath in Return of the King.
Put them in a building where the floors give way if too many creatures are too close together. Maybe give the city an underground river that is starting to flood some areas. Maybe the Aboleth has unleashed some massive beast that the pcs could never kill and it's rampaging after them (think about the scenes in a war movie when everyone is hiding from the tanks in a city battle).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 6:41PM
#6
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O.o Bohrdumb, I think you just made my brain explode with some of those ideas. Gotta love the idea of them leaping and dodging debris as some huge creature chases them. I'd be worried that they would try to stand and fight, but I think they're smart enough to realize when the odds are against. Certainly going to give that a shot possibly as a skill challenge/combat encounter hybrid.
My monday night wouldn't be half as cool if DnD didn't exist.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 6:56PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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Sounds like you need a mastermind villain.
Come up with a death trap. Give the mastermind an optimized character build should they manage to corner him. Remember, the mastermind always has a plan for every contingency. Optimize at least half of your smaller encounters. Give the monsters/enemy NPCs class levels and feats if you need to. Don't forget gear as well.
Even brush up on combat tactics so you can stay on top of your game on the fly.
To work off Bohrdumb's suggestion, perhaps the mastermind sets a trap up for them in an ancient ruins. Once they're deep inside, they are ambushed. During the battle, the villain callously sacrifices his own hirelings and causes the ruins to collapse in on itself. As they escape, they discover phase 2 of his plan which was to unleash some monstrosity on the nearby town. Survivors of the collapsing ruins emerge to watch as a giant beast lumbers forward towards the town. If they're still in relatively good condition they may attack it. If not, they'll have to find a way to regroup and let the town be destroyed.
Don't let the big bad monster fight alone. Give it helpers. Maybe it can summon the aid of smaller creatures via telepathy or it spawns smaller versions of itself.
While they fight the monster, the mastermind attains his big goal. And it makes him more powerful than before. To give some kind of reference/comparison for the PCs so they realize just how much stronger he became, you can have them encounter him early on in a smaller fight where he doesn't seem nearly as important so they might be willing to let him escape. When they see him later, they'll have this nice "oh crap" moment.
The final battle should have everything set up in favor for the mastermind. Give him home field advantage, give him an escape route, give him plenty of lackies, traps, magic items, and even maybe a few advantageous dice rolls. :D
Sometime during the course of all this, you should manage to kill at least one of them.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 6:59PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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Also, lastly, this is really dirty...
But after a combat, have them bombarded by a second wave of enemies. All with a surprise attack or even just plain ol' high initiative bonuses. Don't let combat boil down to who moves first. Throw them off guard by scattering them just as they take a sigh of relief.
Edit: And separating the group and singling them out one at a time can also throw them way off.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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9 months ago ::
Sep 11, 2012 - 8:00PM
#9
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While they fight the monster, the mastermind attains his big goal. And it makes him more powerful than before. To give some kind of reference/comparison for the PCs so they realize just how much stronger he became, you can have them encounter him early on in a smaller fight where he doesn't seem nearly as important so they might be willing to let him escape. When they see him later, they'll have this nice "oh crap" moment.
This sounds great. I really like giving them a point of comparison for how much stronger he is. It shouldn't be too difficult to have the aboleth function in this roll. Perhaps with some sort of disguise early on though. Not sure they would be willing to let an aboleth get away from them under any circumstances.
On a side note, i figured out how to use quotes just now. Yes!
My monday night wouldn't be half as cool if DnD didn't exist.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 12, 2012 - 10:22AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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So my real question if I had to boil it down would be- How do I make the threat of death a real issue in combat for these guys?
You can't, so don't bother. You especially can't do this:
Edit: I don't actually have any desire to kill player characters. I just want them to think they're gonna die. I want them shaking in their acrobat boots.
The level of challenge combat presents is very binary. It's generally very easy (if something of a grind at times) or it's very very hard. The middle ground is a difficult place to stand, and gets more difficult the more powerful the characters are. 4th Edition can give you a decently broad middleground for an encounter or two, since players can always break out their daily resources to get out of a pinch, but eventually the players will run out of resources.
The way to give players a definite challenge is to pull out the stops and aim for them failing. If the only way to make them fail is to kill them, then you have a problem, because it's not "fair" to just pile on the monsters and powers, and because you don't want to kill them, for whatever reason. They might appreciate and "unfair" encounter just for the challenge, you (and, I figure, they) won't like it if the challenge goes bad.
So, find ways to make them fail that don't require them to be killed. You've got part of it down, giving them goals that don't require them to kill everything, though I'm not clear as to your approach. But if the players can lose without dying, you can pull out the stops. There are no guidelines you're "required" to follow regarding how tricky to make an encounter, so go to town. My guess is that you can make your encounters extremely difficult to win and these players will find a way. If they don't, they were still challenged, but the characters are also still alive at the end, albeit at something of a disadvantage as a result of their loss.
(Some people recommend fudging dice in order to get the level of challenge "right." Players can tell you're doing this, and when they do the "challenge" disappears, so I don't recommend this.)
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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