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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 4:16PM
#1
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Well.. an interesting debate came up on our last session with an interesting conclusion..
Maybe Im crazy but I just though Id write it here... partially for fun but also as a serious suggestion for DDN.
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So this fighter runs and picks up a bow from the ground to take a shot at a flying creature trying to get away..
His player goes 'Okay... ranged attack.. thats DEX.. ok let's see... wait a moment, WHY would I be better to shoot this bow if I had high DEX???'
Me (DM): "Well.. I guess.. if you are dexterious and have better coordination then you can aim better..."
Him "Um... no?"
And that starts a huge discussion starting off with the debate whether an acrobat untrained in archery would be better at shooting a bow..
Which largely ended up somewhat negative... the discussion moved on to what characterizes a good bowman in RL..
Competition archers.. they didnt strike us as dextrous..
Semi zen-monk japanese kyuudo masters...
And good shooters of other sorts, like riflemen?
Old hunters with a potbelly who does not freak out when the bear jumps out..
Ok, so.. steady calm, awareness, perception... that seems to be the traits of a good archer.
But.. there is an ability score for those things... WIS
So we said 'Aha.. so thats why all the ranger types seem to stack up WIS...', then we silently nodded in the realisation that we had just reached the next level of enlightenment.. adopted the houserule and got on with the game (Where the fighter with his -1 WIS mod rolled a natural 20 and saved the day).
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So, I have been thinking a bit about this.
It actually might be a good thing.
It makes sense.
It also allows you to create the iconic grizzled old hunter type of ranger that will be a great archer despite the fact that he might have a limp.
It allows a hunter/ranger character to get some ability score synnergy between his natural skills and archery...
Who actually picutres a good archer as someone who does backflips (um Legolas in the Lotr movies....but really?)
At least one could do it like the Finesse weapons, but Archery (WIS or DEX)
It will be a solid houserule in our group at the very least.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 4:57PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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Personally I think the real problem is that DEX is a bloated attribute (most of them are really). Lock picking and backflips use next to nothing of the same talents, so it's not all that surprising that archery and backflips share nothing either. DEX is sort of a catchall for "any physical activity requiring precision," and archery fits pretty well under that umbrella. I could equally argue that Sherlock Holmes' perceptiveness (which has little to do with good eyesight or depth perception) and the Dalai Lama's enlightenment (which has little to do with whether he'd freak when surprised by a bear) aren't going to help them hit a bullseye any more than Gabby Douglas' backflips. A good eye will help a bit, sure, but even with perfect knowledge of the target's position, the weak points of its armor, and the prevailing winds there's no guarantee you're going to hit the spot you intended. What will increase your chances of hitting the spot you intended under those circumstances? Precision, which falls under the DEX umbrella. Which is more likely: that a character with perfect coordination will miss because he misjudged the distance, or that a character with perfect perception will miss because his arm wasn't steady or otherwise properly aimed? I'm not sure, but I can make at least as good an argument for DEX as WIS. Heck, maybe it should be INT based, because the character with perfect coordination and perfect perception will still need to calculate the appropriate trajectory based on range, windspeed, air resistance and mass of the arrow, and draw weight of the bow (although I suppose practice can sub for that more easily than it can sub for bad eyesight/coordination).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 5:07PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Personally I think the real problem is that DEX is a bloated attribute (most of them are really). Lock picking and backflips use next to nothing of the same talents, so it's not all that surprising that archery and backflips share nothing either. DEX is sort of a catchall for "any physical activity requiring precision," and archery fits pretty well under that umbrella. I could equally argue that Sherlock Holmes' perceptiveness (which has little to do with good eyesight or depth perception) and the Dalai Lama's enlightenment (which has little to do with whether he'd freak when surprised by a bear) aren't going to help them hit a bullseye any more than Gabby Douglas' backflips. A good eye will help a bit, sure, but even with perfect knowledge of the target's position, the weak points of its armor, and the prevailing winds there's no guarantee you're going to hit the spot you intended. What will increase your chances of hitting the spot you intended under those circumstances? Precision, which falls under the DEX umbrella. Which is more likely: that a character with perfect coordination will miss because he misjudged the distance, or that a character with perfect perception will miss because his arm wasn't steady or otherwise properly aimed? I'm not sure, but I can make at least as good an argument for DEX as WIS. Heck, maybe it should be INT based, because the character with perfect coordination and perfect perception will still need to calculate the appropriate trajectory based on range, windspeed, air resistance and mass of the arrow, and draw weight of the bow (although I suppose practice can sub for that more easily than it can sub for bad eyesight/coordination).
While I agree with your logic, I think Dex is a bit overpowered in terms of combat right now. It is used for Def with light armor, ranged combat, and finesse melee combat. This is why some people complain that Dex fighters are overpowered. I think moving ranged weaponry to Wis would be a good fix to that problem, and would be just as logical as using Dex (though not more so). As such, I support the notion that Wis, not Dex, should modify your hit rate and damage with a ranged weapon.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 5:20PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2008
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Oh wow! I never really thought of this before. I actually like this idea a lot, and I'll give you another reason why you should too. Wisdom is developed through experience, or training. The biggest difference between an intelligent person and a wise person is that the intelligent person can tell you what they think should happen according to logic and physical laws, a wise person understands how things tend to work from experience and know the secret contraditions of the human heart. So an intelligent archer understands that gravity makes an arrow fall and that the wind is blowing in a certain direction and can adjust their shot accordingly. The trained archer who is wise also knows that their body is moving constantly, even when attemptimg to remain still and has learned to relax, slow the beat of their heart, learned not to fear the string of the bow when released, learned how they will adjust their body to the recoil of the bow. I really like this idea. Let's do it!
I bet you a million imaginary dollars that the Lama would beat Gabby in a shoot off.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 5:24PM
#5
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@powerroleplayer
Absoolutely, most stats are catch-alls in some way or another..
But.. I argue this from two perspectives:
The fluff / realism / reason - perspective:
Mostly explained in the first post... but as the stats are defined, it would fit better or at least equally good to link archery to WIS as it does to DEX.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />The fun mechanics perspective:
Having WIS as a stat for bows and crossbows would open up a lot of opportunities for character and class design (not all weapon use must be either STR or DEX), without going into the 4E trap where the stats stop to have a meaning.
The wise and in-tune with nature but non-agile ranger is one of those possibilities.
Another point about that is that STR is quite established as the heavy melee stat.
DEX is quite established as the finesse combat stat.
WIS on the other hand is besides the connection to divine magic also fairly strongly the 'nature stat'.
Bows are also thematically connected to 'nature' so linking up bows with WIS would make sense also in that way.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 5:38PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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I would go as far as to say that since Str or Dex can be used in melee, then have Dex and Wis be used in range. Dex is and has always been ranged combat since part of Dex is "hand/eye coordination". Wisdom is perception, which is the ability to notice small details; it's not how far you can see (as evidenced by the elderly getting Wis bonuses, not Wis penalties to represent their failing senses).
BUT ... I'm of the school of thought that is starting to emerge, of those who want to separate attack bonuses from the ability scores entirely. A 6th level Fighter has +9 to hit because he's a 6th level Fighter, not because he has 18 Strength; whether he fights with his Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence is meaningless. It would allow more character types to be made without having to patch them with feats (weapon finesse in 3E) or create clunky class mechanics (4E). It eliminates trap choices too. This won't take off with the main stream, but it is a thought.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 5:53PM
#7
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Heck, I'd argue that Strength makes more sense than Wisdom; it doesn't matter how perceptive you are if you can't pull the bowstring to full draw and hold it there.
But then again, this is why I hate Wisdom as a concept. Sensory acuity is a physical capacity and not particularly associated with experience, and I don't see why either has to do with intuition or willpower or spiritual strength.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 5:55PM
#8
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Because looking and seeing are different things.
The STR to draw the string is not related to hitting with the arrow after the string is drawn. But Im all for a STR requirement on weapons...
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 6:00PM
#9
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Also, I was thinking more on the calm and steady mind part of WIS with this archery thing than the perception part, altough as that is also a part of both WIS and archery its a bonus.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 6:03PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Strength ought to give bow more range (take a longer draw) ... and maybe a crossbow faster firing rate...
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