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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 11:15AM
#51
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Definitely prefer the world axis.
I like the Astral Sea containg all the divine realms, opposed by the Elemental Chaos ( gods verus titans/elder gods, mirroring real-world creation myths) and the corrupted Abyss-- with the Primal world/prime material plane at the center. I'm also a fan of the Lovecraftian Far Realm, and LOVE the truly mythical Feywild. Indifferent on the Shadowfell, though (could use more Ravenloft).
Agree with a lot of your points.
World Axis gave iconic-but-underused monsters a better home. Giants and Titans got a home in the Elemental Chaos. Faeries got the Feywild. Devils kicked out the LE Deities and made the 9 Hells their own. The Far Realm is mentioned in the DMG.
I prefer the Deities vs. Primordials conflict to the opposing alignment conflict. It gives Evil Deities like Zehir and Asmodeus a different role from Demons. It also removes the idea that Slaads hate Formians, but will equally respect Eladrin and Demons. That Bahamut and Tiamat could alternate between a cold war amongst each other, then ally against Elementals, speaks to a rich cosmology that mirrors RL mythology like Thor and Loki.
I think the existence of the Primal Spirits is a long overdue addition to D&D. So far, Primal PCs could worship Humanoid Deities, Faeries, or Elemental princes; but before 4ed, there were not many good nature spirits similar to what RL Native groups might revere.
To build off that, I really like that being a Deity means you're not just an Epic-level monster. Each plane of existence has their own form of extremely powerful beings, but only those from the Astral Sea are called Deities. There is a significant difference between a Demon Lord and a CE Deity, even if both reside in the Abyss and employ demons.
Despite having less infinite planes, the World Axis actually feels larger, since it's less uniform in what is infinite. The Astral Sea can have an infinity of different worlds in it, as the Elemental Chaos and the Abyss can have.
Finally, the small fact that the dead pass away from the Multiverse is a nice touch. Powerful beings can bind exceptional souls to their plane, but the majority of beings leave, to where no-one can answer. I like that there are some mysteries that cannot be solved.
'I have had players complain about having extra rares in a pack. I’ve had players complain about getting free things. I have had players complain because they liked something “too much”.' - Mark Rosewater's Twitter, May 7th, 2013
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 11:34AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> Mystara...I'm not sure about, as it seems to have its own cosmology sometimes?
Mystara had its own cosmology way back, yes. It was retconned into the Wheel cosmology later on.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 12:49PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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No one has insulted the World Axis cosmology, though it is entirely possible to do so, so please try to extend that same courtesy. This is a "which do you prefer" discussion, not a "sling ridiculous insults at the one you do NOT prefer" discussion. Stating that you dislike the Great Wheel due to the alignment restrictions is fine, and entirely part of the discussion. Terms like "abomination", "landfill", and "garbage" do nothing to help your point.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend you. Was just using a bit of ill-considered hyperbole to express my opinion.
In a less vehement way of speaking, I really don't like alignment and that negatively colors my opinion of the Great Wheel, perhaps undeservedly. Though, as others have mentioned, the overly tidy "OCD" presentation of the Great Wheel seems wholly unnatural and overwrought to me, so alignment isn't entirely to blame, either. Not that there's anything wrong with people who do like the Great Wheel, just don't expect me to get too invested in the planar adventures of a campaign that uses it.
In the end, I would like to see the Great Wheel be the default for Greyhawk, the World Axis be the default for Forgotten Realms, and Eberron return to its original "orbiting planes" model. Just my opinion.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 2:17PM
#54
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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 I have no doubt that when I do incorporate the planes into DDN, it will be much like this. Most of the old Great Wheel planes are there, as are the World Axis planes. Sigil will sit directly at the core of it all, with portals or gates that reach through every plane all the way to the Far Realm, which I will leave as basically cut off aside from rare, unexplained portals (or something along those lines). The Ethereal will be the backdrop of all of the planes (much like "outer space" is the backdrop to galaxies).
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 2:45PM
#55
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2003
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Not even a contest: The Great Wheel.
It defines D&D's planes for me, and 4e's radical alterations to it and many, many of the classic monsters and concepts therein struck me as too much change for... what reason? It threw out so many things without providing a replacement in many cases, it seemed to value the metagame idea of everything being designed for adventuring in which everything revolved around the PCs rather than being an organic cosmology, and it never really inspired me. Most of the best planar material for 4e ended up being later in the edition when a few freelancers did their level best to bring much of what was lost initially back into the 4e planar structure. It isn't always easy, and the conversion can be awkward given the 4e planes' departure from classical D&D, but the referencing and the respect to previous material was appreciated.
I cut my teeth on Planescape, even though I didn't start playing till 3e. And the planes and metaphysical concepts of the Great Wheel, as crazy and paradoxical as they could be at times, inspired and continue to inspire me like little else ever has. They got me into writing, and into freelancing.
Mind you, I'm not averse to working with different planar setups, given my work on Pathfinder's cosmology (which by virtue of open content and closed content, couldn't simply use the Great Wheel), but the Great Wheel serves as the inspirational baseline for me, and I would adore - absolutely adore - being able to write more material for it. 5e Planescape setting or Sigil book please? :D
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 2:53PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2003
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The Great Wheel is common to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape. Nentir Vale, Mystara/Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Birthright, Eberron, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun each have their own cosmologies. Ravenloft doesn't really have a cosmology. I can't remember what cosmology Council of Wyrms uses.
Mystara got retconned into the Great Wheel in 2e (it was originally part of the basic D&D line rather than AD&D). Dragonlance was part of the Great Wheel in 2e (and could be assumed to be there in 1e by some readings). Birthright was part of the Great Wheel. Spelljammer was within the Great Wheel. Dark Sun was within the Great Wheel as far as Planescape was concerned, though one of the DS books presented a slightly tweaked version thereof. And Ravenloft was a demiplane within the Great Wheel.
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 3:01PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2003
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Forgiven. But for the record, Eladrin have existed since 2e. They were the iconic Chaotic Good outsider race in 2e and 3e both. The 4e "eladrin" are rather different in many ways. It would have been better IMO if they'd made the 4e creatures their own name rather than using that of a previous and iconic creature.
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 3:15PM
#58
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It defines D&D's planes for me, and 4e's radical alterations to it and many, many of the classic monsters and concepts therein struck me as too much change for... what reason?
To reduce the needless complexity and OCD-like alignment-classification that stifled quite a few people. The world axis is, while nicely defined, vastly more open to change around a little to better suit your own ideas. It's vastly less nailed-down, esp. with stuff that simply doesn't fit in a large amount of fantasy worlds (like the plane of clockword mega-ocd).
If you have questions about 4th Edition - don't hesitate to ask me via PMs. Join the Community Monster Manual Group and help to collect a mass of monsters which will make your life as DM easier, and your life as Player pure hell!  I am a cartographer. You can find some of my maps in my profile, free for non-commercial use. Also, if you happen to like maps or make them yourselves, join into the Cartographers Group!
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 3:18PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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I have no doubt that when I do incorporate the planes into DDN, it will be much like this. Most of the old Great Wheel planes are there, as are the World Axis planes. Sigil will sit directly at the core of it all, with portals or gates that reach through every plane all the way to the Far Realm, which I will leave as basically cut off aside from rare, unexplained portals (or something along those lines). The Ethereal will be the backdrop of all of the planes (much like "outer space" is the backdrop to galaxies).
Looks good, though I would personally move the Feywild and Shadowfell "in" a ring, since one of the signature elements of those planes is that they directly border the Primal world(s). The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos would then expand to fill the top/lower half of their ring, respectively.
The thing I like about this setup is that it reads like different 2D map-projections of our 3D globe... trying to map the same information with different ways of abstracting the "missing" dimension. Our own world is FULL of variant 2D map projections, all of them trying to accurately depict the same 3D object.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 09, 2012 - 3:22PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2008
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As a devoted Planescape fan from 2nd Edition, After playing a Planescape campaign with the World Axis model, I greatly prefer the world axis model to tell the Planescape stories.
The great wheel has some bloat, and it's symmetry requires rarely used planes that take developers time to stat out. The Abyss, Celestia, Arborea, Mechanus, Limbo, the Nine Hells, I know exactly what to do with as far as writing adventures for, the others not so much.
The story kernels of the Beastlands and Ysgard can be scattered between Celestia, the Feywild, and locations connected with primal spirits.
Acheron, Gehenna and Carceri all step on each others toes for story space as agonistic hell prisons of lawful evil gods (which I think is better served by the abyss and nine hells anyway), while Pandemonium, the Shadowfell, and Hades take up the same space as existential hell of gloom and despair.
As a DM I much prefer the eerie desolation of Shom, the Sky courts of the Coatl and the Glittering city of Hestavar to the odd, unusable, and boring Arcadia, Elysium, and Bytopia respectively.
Island Dominions floating in the Astral sea I liked so much more. Give me one well designed prison plane, or one well fleshed out haunted evil plane.
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