Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about planar exploration, but the question still stands: which do you prefer?
My own opinion: I prefer the Great Wheel cosmology. I loved all of the fiddly little planes that were presented. Ethereal Plane, Astral Plane, Elemental Planes, Para-Elemental Planes, Quasi-Elemental Planes, Negative Energy Plane, Positive Energy Planes, Demi-Planes....I loved them. I have no doubt that I have read the 1E Manual of the Planes hundreds of times. Sure, 90% of those planes would never be explored by PCs, but they were wonderful to read about and there was always the chance that monsters could come from them. I still hold the 1E MotP as one of the best RPG books released for D&D, both for crunch and for fluff.
Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about p
If I had to pick one - or the other - it would be the Great Wheel.
However - I would prefer the Planes to be represented as inaccessable by mortals.
Perhaps even "death" is the only way you can travel the Planes.
The Planes are realms of extremes - absolutes - and, as far as the Great Wheel, somewhat convoluted concepts of buffet philosophy.
A great big Matrix Trilogy - totally a mess, but conceptually fun to play around in.
A HUGE fan of Demi-Planes though... monstrously so - and those should be where mortals get to "play." Did 4th Edition have Demi-Planes?
If I had to pick one - or the other - it would be the Great Wheel.However - I would prefer the Planes to be represented as inaccessable by mortals. Perhaps even "death" is the only way you can travel the Planes. The Planes are realms of extremes - ab
I prefer the great wheel cosmology, as long as it is seen symbolically and has the flexibility of including smaller demiplanes, multiple worlds in the prime material, and non-aligned planes.
I like to think of the great wheel of a way of categorizing planes. Any plane that is lawful good would in a sense be heavenly, a plane that is lawful evil is hellish, a plane that is chaotic evil is abyssal, etc.
They shouldn't be accessable except through the aforementioned death, and top level spells such as astral projection and gate.
I prefer the great wheel cosmology, as long as it is seen symbolically and has the flexibility of including smaller demiplanes, multiple worlds in the prime material, and non-aligned planes.I like to think of the great wheel of a way of categorizing
There are two D&D cosmologies discussed in these notes: the Great Wheel (used in v.3.5 and earlier editions) and the World Axis (used in 4e). Likewise, two supplements are referred to: Manual of the Planes for 3e and its counterpart for 4e. All planar traits mentioned below are as described on pages 7-14 of the 3e MotP.
Knights of Everest uses the World Axis cosmology, which is described on pages 160 and 161 of the 4e DMG and pages 12 and 13 of the 4e Manual of the Planes. This article is not an attempt to actually convert the 4e MotP to 3e. It’s merely some quick and dirty notes on how I’d use the World Axis cosmology in 3e.
The Astral Sea is much like its counterpart in the Great Wheel. Spells that access the astral plane now access the Astral Sea instead. Unlike its counterpart however, the Astral Sea is not omnipresent (see ‘Planar Interactions’ below); that is, it doesn’t link with virtually every other plane. You can therefore ignore the information for astral links presented on page 48 of the 3e MotP. Likewise, ignore any mention of traveling to other planes via the spell astral projection. Instead, use the information for veils of color given on page 87 of the 4e MotP.
The Astral Sea has the following Traits: No Gravity, Normal Time, Infinite Size, Alterable Morphic Trait, No Elemental or Energy Traits, Mildly Neutral-Aligned, Enhanced Magic. These traits are as written for the astral plane (see page 47 and 48 of the 3e MotP).
The Elemental Chaos is an amalgam of the 3e elemental planes and limbo. It has the following traits: Subjective Directional Gravity, Normal Time, Infinite Size, No Energy-Dominant Traits, Highly Morphic, Sporadic Dominant-Element, Strongly Chaos-Aligned, Wild Magic (as written for Limbo on page 93 of the 3e MotP). The Elemental Chaos can be controlled as described for Limbo on pages 93 and 94.
There are no Primordials in Knights of Everest, unlike the 4e cosmology. The Elemental Chaos is unruled (as described in the sidebar ‘Who Rules the Elemental Planes’ on page 84 of the 3e MotP).
The Feywild has the following traits: Normal Gravity, Normal Time, Finite Size, Alterable Morphic, No Elemental or Energy Traits, Mildly Neutral-Aligned, Enhanced Magic (as written for the plane of faerie on page 210 of the 3e MotP). Elves call the feywild by its proper name, Arvanaith.
The Shadowfell is essentially the plane of shadow from 3e (as mentioned on page 15 of the 4e MotP, in the sidebar discussing the Great Wheel). It has the following traits: Normal Gravity, Normal Time, Finite Size, No Elemental or Energy Traits, Mildly Neutral-Aligned, Enhanced Magic, Impeded Magic (both as written for the plane of shadow on page 60 of the 3e MotP).
The information on shadow links (page 60) applies to the Shadowfell.
Planar Interactions: Planar interaction is described on page 15 of the 3e MotP. Examine the World Axis diagram (above), notice that the Astral Sea is the ‘upper’ part and the Elemental Chaos is the ‘lower’ part of the cosmology. The Material World serves as the ‘axis’ with the Feywild and the Shadowfell as parallel planes.
The Astral Sea is separate from the Material Plane; it is not a transitive plane (unlike its counterpart in the Great Wheel). The Elemental Chaos is likewise a separate plane.
The Feywild and the Shadowfell are both coexistent and conterminous with the Material Plane. In the World Axis cosmology, they are termed parallel planes (as mentioned on page 8 of the 4e MotP). Spells that access the astral plane (in the Great Wheel) now access the Feywild (in the World Axis). Likewise, spells that access the ethereal (in the Great Wheel) now access the Shadowfell (in the World Axis).
There is no ethereal plane in the World Axis cosmology. This affects a number of spells and magic items that duplicate those spells (ported from the sidebar ‘Without the Ethereal’ on page 55 of the 3e MotP):
* The following spells either do not function or do not exist: ethereal jaunt, etherealness, and secret chest.
* The following spells have elements that do not function without an ethereal plane: Dimensional anchor, invisibility purge, see invisibility, true seeing, and spells with the force descriptor, such as magic missile and wall of force. When using these spells, ignore any reference to the ethereal plane, other elements function as normal.
* The blink spell works by accessing the Shadowfell.
Ain't ya glad you asked? Well, I am .
I much prefer the World Axis.I even retro-fit the cosmology into my v3.5 homebrew, as a sorta nod to 4e ;).My Cosmology Notes
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There are two D&D cosmologies discussed in these notes: the Great Wheel (used in v.3.5 and earlier editions) and
I am, indeed, glad I asked. I enjoy viewing the opinions of others, whether I share them or not.
I'm being silly, not snarky. My sblock dropped half a screen (at least). Didn't mean to over do it .
I am, indeed, glad I asked.I enjoy viewing the opinions of others, whether I share them or not. [/quote]I'm being silly, not snarky. My sblock dropped half a screen (at least). Didn't mean to over do it ;).
I really liked the World Axis when it came out--I thought it was clearly superior to the Great Wheel. Now I've softened on it a bit and I marginally prefer it over the GW. I think it was the newness that drew me in. While the World Axis is still closer to what I prefer in my game, there is something that feels a bit incomplete to me, but I can't put my finger on what it is.
I really liked the World Axis when it came out--I thought it was clearly superior to the Great Wheel. Now I've softened on it a bit and I marginally prefer it over the GW. I think it was the newness that drew me in. While the World Axis is still clos
Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about planar exploration, but the question still stands: which do you prefer?
While I liked both cosmologies, I have more fond memories of the great wheel. Of course, that's probably due to the fact that AD&D 2e gave us Planescape, which was awesome. That being said, what I'd like to see for DDN is a book that presents both the Axis and the Wheel, as well as a guide to creating one's own cosmologies. While D&D does have it's own default flavors, the game, at it's heart, is an instrument for us to tell our own stories and have fun. I really want it to keep that flexibility regardless of what default flavors they go with.
While I liked both cosmologies, I have more fond memories of the great wheel. Of course, that's probably due to the fact that AD&D 2e gave us Planescape, which was awesome. That being said, what I'd like to see for DDN is a book that presents both
Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about planar exploration, but the question still stands: which do you prefer?
While I liked both cosmologies, I have more fond memories of the great wheel. Of course, that's probably due to the fact that AD&D 2e gave us Planescape, which was awesome. That being said, what I'd like to see for DDN is a book that presents both the Axis and the Wheel, as well as a guide to creating one's own cosmologies. While D&D does have it's own default flavors, the game, at it's heart, is an instrument for us to tell our own stories and have fun. I really want it to keep that flexibility regardless of what default flavors they go with.
I'd be all for this and I think that while we're getting edition neutral products, this one would really be handy to have. I think that the advice on building one's own comsmology would be welcomed by a lot of people.
While I liked both cosmologies, I have more fond memories of the great wheel. Of course, that's probably due to the fact that AD&D 2e gave us Planescape, which was awesome. That being said, what I'd like to see for DDN is a book that presents both
I see no reason the game has to choose. The only difference between the Great Wheel and the World Axis is the relationship of these planes to one another. In the Great WHeel, they Outer PLanes are rigidly mapped to border one another. In the World Axis, they are all floating about in the Astral Sea. Both can be true.
Just present each plane separately and then have a chapter called "Cosmologies" in which you offer several ways that these planes are can relate to one another. Let the reader choose which he likes, or offer him the tools to design his own cosmology.
Edited to add: And this is exactly how the designers said they want to do a Manual of the Planes, at GenCon just a few weeks ago.
I see no reason the game has to choose. The only difference between the Great Wheel and the World Axis is the relationship of these planes to one another. In the Great WHeel, they Outer PLanes are rigidly mapped to border one another. In the World
I see no reason the game has to choose. The only difference between the Great Wheel and the World Axis is the relationship of these planes to one another. In the Great WHeel, they Outer PLanes are rigidly mapped to border one another. In the World Axis, they are all floating about in the Astral Sea. Both can be true.
Just present each plane separately and then have a chapter called "Cosmologies" in which you offer several ways that these planes are can relate to one another. Let the reader choose which he likes, or offer him the tools to design his own cosmology.
Edited to add: And this is exactly how the designers said they want to do a Manual of the Planes, at GenCon just a few weeks ago.
Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about planar exploration, but the question still stands: which do you prefer?
Neither.
Well, I guess I prefer the World Axis, but to me that is like choosing to eat tripe instead of haggis. I don't like either of them all that much, but if forced to choose gun-to-my-head...
Rather than have a codified cosmology that has solid rules implications ("These are the planes, they are connected like so, and are the home planes of these creatures" etc), I'd prefer WotC remember that we're playing D&D because we like fantasy and are familiar with the tropes, and not bother giving us a default assumption of cosmology, and let us make our own and work out the implications.
Of course, that will never happen.
So, I will do as I always have done, and throw out the default cosmology and do my best to cobble together something that works for me, hoping that I spend most of my time being creative and not too much time messing around with rules that are predicated on the abandoned default fluff (which was less of an issue in 4th than prior editions; not surprising, given that edition's emphasis on fluff-agnostic rules).
Neither.Well, I guess I prefer the World Axis, but to me that is like choosing to eat tripe instead of haggis. I don't like either of them all that much, but if forced to choose gun-to-my-head...Rather than have a codified cosmology that has solid r
I see no reason the game has to choose. The only difference between the Great Wheel and the World Axis is the relationship of these planes to one another. In the Great WHeel, they Outer PLanes are rigidly mapped to border one another. In the World Axis, they are all floating about in the Astral Sea. Both can be true.
Just present each plane separately and then have a chapter called "Cosmologies" in which you offer several ways that these planes are can relate to one another. Let the reader choose which he likes, or offer him the tools to design his own cosmology.
Edited to add: And this is exactly how the designers said they want to do a Manual of the Planes, at GenCon just a few weeks ago.
Rather than have a codified cosmology that has solid rules implications ("These are the planes, they are connected like so, and are the home planes of these creatures" etc), I'd prefer WotC remember that we're playing D&D because we like fantasy and are familiar with the tropes, and not bother giving us a default assumption of cosmology, and let us make our own and work out the implications.
"Oh, look at this crow! It looks delicious! I think I'll eat some!"
Just because that's what the devs say they want to do doesn't mean that's what they will do.
True, but here's to hoping that they follow through on this one.
Just because that's what the devs say they want to do doesn't mean that's what they will do.[/quote]True, but here's to hoping that they follow through on this one.
I suspect that, for many people, their love of the Great Wheel largely stems from their nostalgic love of Planescape.
Since I have no history with 2E or Planescape, I largely see the Great Wheel as an astrological landfill full of alignment garbage, so I greatly prefer the World Axis. I would love to see a Planescape reboot that uses the World Axis as its basis.
I suspect that, for many people, their love of the Great Wheel largely stems from their nostalgic love of Planescape.Since I have no history with 2E or Planescape, I largely see the Great Wheel as an astrological landfill full of alignment garbage, s
I suspect that, for many people, their love of the Great Wheel largely stems from their nostalgic love of Planescape.
Perhaps. Although I should point out that I freaking LOVE Planescape, yet have a profound HATE for the Great Wheel.
Since I have no history with 2E or Planescape, I largely see the Great Wheel as an astrological landfill full of alignment garbage, so I greatly prefer the World Axis. I would love to see a Planescape reboot that uses the World Axis as its basis.
Nothing about the concept of Planescape ("There are lots of planes, and at the metaphorical "center" of them is Sigil, the City of Doors, which contains portals to and from every known and unknown plane. Wackiness ensues!") absolutely requires a cosmology like The Great Wheel.
So your idea is absolutely tennable. 4e kinda already did it, in the 4e Manual of the Planes.
Perhaps. Although I should point out that I freaking LOVE Planescape, yet have a profound HATE for the Great Wheel. Nothing about the concept of Planescape ("There are lots of planes, and at the metaphorical "center" of them is Sigil, the City of D
PlaneScape is entirely possible using the World Axis.
There are certain planes that either simply wouldn't exist or would need to be completely reworked in order to include them in a totally alignment-free cosmology, mostly because there are a few that existed simply to fill in the gaps with the 9 alignment system, if the Great Wheel cosmology was also included (and alignment is totally non-enforced).
By the by: people seem to simply adore using the term "nostalgia" since DDN was started. Please keep in mind that nostalgia is a sentimental longing for the past. For some of us who still play and thoroughly enjoy old-E games, it is not nostalgia. I do not have a nostalgic love of PlaneScape. I have a current love of PlaneScape...complete with its "astrological landfill full of alignment garbage".
No one has insulted the World Axis cosmology, though it is entirely possible to do so, so please try to extend that same courtesy. This is a "which do you prefer" discussion, not a "sling ridiculous insults at the one you do NOT prefer" discussion. Stating that you dislike the Great Wheel due to the alignment restrictions is fine, and entirely part of the discussion. Terms like "abomination", "landfill", and "garbage" do nothing to help your point.
PlaneScape is entirely possible using the World Axis. There are certain planes that either simply wouldn't exist or would need to be completely reworked in order to include them in a totally alignment-free cosmology, mostly because there are a few t
I absolutely 100% loved the Great Wheel. The layout of the planes seemd to agree with, in my opinion, the natural tendancy of sentient creatures to flock together (tigers flock; birds flock; people flock. Therefore, elves flock; demons flock; devils flock; drow flock; myconids flock; etc.). Which, by extension, proves that I liked the alignment system, but that is a matter for another discussion. However, that being said, I also loved the introduction of the Feywild & the Elemental Chaos. I refuse to bring up the Shadowfell, as it's just the Plane of Shadow, with a less-awesome name. The Feywild brought in a home for all of the "cutesy" fey stuff, like fairies/pixies, instead of them being caught in Arvandor or imprisoned on earth for infidelity. No, the Feywild is a place of the natural (trees/'shrooms/etc.), as well as those things warped by the natural (formorians/Various dire-beasts). The Feywild is also the land of a milennia-long sojourn of a new breed of elf specifically designed in 4E (If the Eladrin existed in 3E, please forgive me, as I speak in ignorance and do not wish to look up anything in 3E, because there is just so much stuff!). The Elemental Chaos is just that. Instead of the tedium & monotony of four planes of each element (a giant rock; a ball of fire that brought Johnny Cash to mind whenever I played there; a place of endless gravity [for no apparent reason?] in which you can only fall forever and be attack by things you cannot see; and a giant, bottomless/topless ocean, in which you will drown without the combination casting of water-breathing & permenancy), the Elemental Chaos is just raw, undefinite, undivided, residual, creationalistic energy; a giant compilation of the four Great Planes of the Elements, and the Quazi-Elemental Planes. Do I wish for the return of the Great Wheel? Absolutely. However, I think that the Great Wheel could be improved by the addition of the Feywild (if you are hell-bent on a new name, the Plane of Nature, or something that doesn't sound like Elton John made it up, but personally I like theFeywild) and the compilation of the (Quazi-)Elemental Planes into the Elemental Chaos. As a side note, I also think it should be the Great Wheel, because I do severely love Mechanus, and I feel it is an insult to automatons everywhere for their plane of existance to be thrown in at last minute three-fourths of the way through an edition in Dragon Magazine, that for them to be established in an already existing, hard-backed, article in the Manual of the Planes.
I absolutely 100% loved the Great Wheel. The layout of the planes seemd to agree with, in my opinion, the natural tendancy of sentient creatures to flock together (tigers flock; birds flock; people flock. Therefore, elves flock; demons flock; devils
Mostly because I find the Great Wheel to be the "OCD Cosmology". Everything needs to be represented in it's own small parcel. Demi-SEmi-Hemi-Quemi Plane of Vacuum? Check. Uber-Demi-Strangy Plane of Oooze? Check. Everything is ordered in an OCD-like manner that just seems entirely unnatural to me. The world axis on the other hand is a more interesting place to me, simply because instead of having 2389 planes, I have 4 distinct ones which each have their own mix of tropes, from which you can construct more details if you so desire.
All in all, I'd prefer the World Axis to be in the PHB - along with the GW - to get new players started easier. I find the GW to be overloaded and simply not well suited to newer players. The World Axis is far easier to understand and tinker with, I find.
I prefer the World Axis by an enormous amount.Mostly because I find the Great Wheel to be the "OCD Cosmology". Everything needs to be represented in it's own small parcel. Demi-SEmi-Hemi-Quemi Plane of Vacuum? Check. Uber-Demi-Strangy Plane of Oooze?
Any pictures or maps showing the difference between the "great wheel" and the "world axis"?
Cause it sounds to me like you could stick your great wheel onto your world axis :P
Any pictures or maps showing the difference between the "great wheel" and the "world axis"?Cause it sounds to me like you could stick your great wheel onto your world axis :P
I like having planes that don't necessarily have to be places the characters go and kill stuff.
As for Planescape (easily done in WA), I have a current Planescape campaign that has gone from 3rd to 4th Ed rules, is now on hiatus (started looking back at Basic, 1st and 2nd Ed the last year or so).
I like having planes that don't necessarily have to be places the characters go and kill stuff.As for Planescape (easily done in WA), I have a current Planescape campaign that has gone from 3rd to 4th Ed rules, is now on hiatus (started looking back
Any pictures or maps showing the difference between the "great wheel" and the "world axis"?
Cause it sounds to me like you could stick your great wheel onto your world axis :P
You kinda can. The Elemental Chaos is just a smash-up of the Elemental Planes (regular, para-, and quasi-).
The Astral Sea (and the Dominions that lie within) are basically the equivalent of the Outer planes as well as the Astral Plane (if I'm remembering my GW cosmology correctly).
The Plane of Shadow is kinda sorta the Shadowfell.
The Feywild really has no analogue, but thematically it is basically Arvandor or Arborea, without the realm of the CG baggage.
The Abyss is still the Abyss.
The role of the Ethereal Plane is more or less irrelevant, but aspects of it were swallowed up by other planes, and the same can be said for the Positive and Negative energy planes. Ultimately, every plane is a bit more safe/realistic to adventure in, and while many of them are dangerous due to the hazards, monsters, and other threats that dwell within, none of them will simply kill you as soon as you arrive if you transport to there unprepared.
An impromptu trip to the Elemental Plane of Earth, without a means to breathe stone or even move through solid earth, pretty much assured death (if not instant). A trip to the Postive Energy Plane causes you to explode. A trip to the Negative Energy Plane causes you to shrivel and die. Frankly, the Great Wheel is a cosmology that is of limited use as a source of adventure.
In contrast, every plane in 4e (lacking as the World Axis is) is dedicated to being functional as an adventure site.
You kinda can. The Elemental Chaos is just a smash-up of the Elemental Planes (regular, para-, and quasi-).The Astral Sea (and the Dominions that lie within) are basically the equivalent of the Outer planes as well as the Astral Plane (if I'm rememb
There's no Shadowfell or Feywild in the Great Wheel, and they never detailed a Gladsheim-like plane, or a positive or negative material plane for the World Axis. However, Gladsheim would be a fine Astral Dominion, and the Positive and Negative Material could be regions of the Elemental Chaos in the World Axis and the Shadowfell is kind of the Plane of Shadow in the Great Wheel, and the Feywild is the Plane of Faerie.
It works fine. I have little doubt that a 5e Manual of the Planes could easily simply detail different planes, show you how they set up in different cosmologies and then let you decide your own cosmology if you like.
Edited with Steely Dan's added info. Thanks, Steely Dan!
You absolutely can
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There's no Shadowfell or Feywild in the Great Wheel, and they never detailed a Gladsheim-like plane, or a positive or negative material plane for the World Axis. However, Gladsheim would be a fine Astral Dominion, and
There's no Shadowfell or Feywild in the Great Wheel, and they never detailed a Gladsheim-like plane, or a positive or negative material plane for the World Axis. However, Gladsheim would be a fine Astral Dominion, and the Positive and Negative Material could be regions of the Elemental Chaos in the World Axis and the Shadowfell is kind of the Demiplane of Shadow in the Great Wheel. (Don't know about the Feywild, though.)
The 3rd Ed Manual of the Planes has the Plane of Shadow and the Plane of Faerie, and Planescape has the Seelie Court demi-plane (wanders through the "upper" planes).
The 3rd Ed Manual of the Planes has the Plane of Shadow and the Plane of Faerie, and Planescape has the Seelie Court demi-plane (wanders through the "upper" planes).
The put concepts in their own planes, ignoring that these concepts cannot exist or evolve without a dynamic interaction with some other concepts, opposite concepts first. If opposite forces has to plane-travel to reach each others, it makes no sense, even more when they are placed on opposite sides just to have a lovely symetrical map of the planes.
I don't like having a map of the planes. I would prefer that each planar travel consist in a real travel to find your way between dynamic planes and dynamic planes in constant evolution (because opposite forces are not in their own closets). These dynamic planes could even become a reason to the complexity of using magic.
I think the D&D cosmology should have less planes and more demi-planes.
I don't like either cosmologies.The put concepts in their own planes, ignoring that these concepts cannot exist or evolve without a dynamic interaction with some other concepts, opposite concepts first.If opposite forces has to plane-travel to reach
No problemo, I like your style, dude. *said like Sam Elliot/Cowboy Guy in The Big Lebowski*
So, it looks like the Ethereal Plane is back, should it be something that permeates every plane?
No problemo, I like your style, dude. *said like Sam Elliot/Cowboy Guy in The Big Lebowski*So, it looks like the Ethereal Plane is back, should it be something that permeates every plane?
I see that there are actually "two wheels", the Alignment planes and the Elemental planes.
I was sort of hoping you could mash the two cosmologies to fit this pic:
But it looks like Feywild and Shadowfell sort of de-axify the World Axis. Maybe they can be the hubcaps?
Thanks for the pics.I see that there are actually "two wheels", the Alignment planes and the Elemental planes.I was sort of hoping you could mash the two cosmologies to fit this pic:But it looks like Feywild and Shadowfell sort of de-axify the World
I like the Astral Sea containg all the divine realms, opposed by the Elemental Chaos ( gods verus titans/elder gods, mirroring real-world creation myths) and the corrupted Abyss-- with the Primal world/prime material plane at the center. I'm also a fan of the Lovecraftian Far Realm, and LOVE the truly mythical Feywild. Indifferent on the Shadowfell, though (could use more Ravenloft).
Not really a fan of either Planescape or the Great Wheel-- they demystify the planes to the point of reducing them to sci-fi worlds, for the purpose of making a sort of "periodic table" of the planes, IMO. It seems to me that almost every plane has to have a mathematical opposite, with planes in between that are "this neighboir averaged with that neighbor." A lot of grid-filling going on, rather than having planes that are evocative on their own. Again, IMO.
That being said, give both World Axis and Great Wheel as examples in a MotP, DMG, PHB, Red box, whatever-- allow groups to use what they like, or make their own cosmology.
Definitely prefer the world axis.I like the Astral Sea containg all the divine realms, opposed by the Elemental Chaos ( gods verus titans/elder gods, mirroring real-world creation myths) and the corrupted Abyss-- with the Primal world/prime material
In fact, any non elemental plane feels too corporeal for me.
Even the Ethereal?
Hehe, if you consider elemental = inner planes, you forgot the astral plane and the material plane
As ethereal and astral planes as being elemental can be discussed, even if D&D is clear about that elements are physical and based on Air, earth, Fire and Water, material plane can't be an elemental plane by definition. So I don't think inner planes = elemental planes. It's one of the numerous flaws in the great wheel cosmology.
Even the Ethereal?[/quote]Hehe, if you consider elemental = inner planes, you forgot the astral plane and the material plane As ethereal and astral planes as being elemental can be discussed, even if D&D is clear about that elements are physical and
In fact, any non elemental plane feels too corporeal for me.
Even the Ethereal?
Hehe, if you consider elemental = inner planes, you forgot the astral plane and the material plane
As ethereal and astral planes as being elemental can be discussed, even if D&D is clear about that elements are physical and based on Air, earth, Fire and Water, material plane can't be an elemental plane by definition. So I don't think inner planes = elemental planes. It's one of the numerous flaws in the great wheel cosmology.
This brings up an interesting point, the Ethereal Plane is back in 5th Ed (mentioned in the condition), does it permeate all other planes?
Even the Ethereal?[/quote]Hehe, if you consider elemental = inner planes, you forgot the astral plane and the material plane As ethereal and astral planes as being elemental can be discussed, even if D&D is clear about that elements are physical and
I'm late to the party as usual... I vastly prefer the Great Wheel. Perhaps it's nostalgia, preferred play style, or just the story potential. (okay, not really. I will happily admit I don't care about alignment beyond roleplaying fluff... That said 9 alignment fluff bits, please!) I've had many interesting stories with the Great Wheel and Planescape as basis (Planescape was part of what introduced me to D&D, I won't deny). When I first encountered the Wheel Axis, I raged (granted, I was a fervent in my anti-4e stance back when I was a total jerk) and thought it was a gimmicky bunch of amusement park stations. While most of that notion is gone, the Axis still feels a bit off to me. Plus, I still hate the Titans rip-off with the Primordials vs. Gods thing (especially when applied to every campaign setting ). Heck, I just dislike the PoL fluff in general.
Now, as for the book? There are many cosmologies and what not attempted throughout D&D! Wild Space in Spelljammer, World Axis in Points of Light, The Great Wheel in Planescape (Albeit, that came later) I'd rather MotP source books dedicated to each so each can have a fleshed out representation instead of being crammed into one book with close to no info.
That said, I really like building my own cosmologies rather than having an assumed one (unless I'm running Planescape, lol)
I'm late to the party as usual... I vastly prefer the Great Wheel. Perhaps it's nostalgia, preferred play style, or just the story potential. (okay, not really. I will happily admit I don't care about alignment beyond roleplaying fluff... That sa
The Designers have already stated that the Great Wheel will be the assumed base for DDN but that is only one way to order and categorize what is essentially a complex structure.
I would prefer it if DDN combined the 4E and the Great Wheel and take the best concepts from both (Elemental Chaos, Feywild, lots of themed planes, etc.).
The Designers have already stated that the Great Wheel will be the assumed base for DDN but that is only one way to order and categorize what is essentially a complex structure. I would prefer it if DDN combined the 4E and the Great Wheel and take th
Been playing D&D since 1st Edition, so grew up with the Great Wheel, but definitely prefer the World Axis of 4E. I like its flexibility and openness, because I'm not one to only use the published planes. The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are much easier to add new planes if you want to. My only real complaint is I prefer separate elemental planes vs. one big mish mash of elements, but that's pretty easily worked around, so it's not a big deal. Having said all that, I won't complain too much no matter what we get, because most of the time my players travel to the planes via portals so the structure really has little if any relevance.
Been playing D&D since 1st Edition, so grew up with the Great Wheel, but definitely prefer the World Axis of 4E. I like its flexibility and openness, because I'm not one to only use the published planes. The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are much
Like the Great Wheel more, but I really like the Shadowfell and Feywild.
That said, I dislike the attachment of cosmologies to the general game. Cosmologies are for settings, and even then everytime they've mentioned it from a marketing standpoint they say people not playing in settings largely use homebrews.
If anyone's interested, I proposed the Metaverse awhile back, which basically comes down to planes upon planes with the spacial arrangement left to GMs:
"D&D is not truly D&D without the Great Wheel, but for many players and DMs, the 4th Edition cosmology is their preferred “take” on the planes. We also have campaign settings with cosmological needs of their own. Our goal with D&D Next is to present a planar toolbox that allows us to borrow or assemble whatever cosmological elements suit our needs, and yours as well. You’ll see lots of references to the inner and outer planes of the Great Wheel, as well as references to planar reflections of the natural world, namely the Feywild and the Shadowfell. But our underlying goal is to let the campaign setting determine the cosmology, be it one of yours or one of ours. What will your next campaign cosmology look like? I’m betting it’ll look nothing like mine, and that’s no catastrophe."
Like the Great Wheel more, but I really like the Shadowfell and Feywild.That said, I dislike the attachment of cosmologies to the general game. Cosmologies are for settings, and even then everytime they've mentioned it from a marketing standpoint th
I've got a question: Is the Great Wheel common to all TSR/WotC printed settings?
From what I remember, yes (with maybe an exception for Eberron). Although it should be noted that Spelljammer and Planescape had a slightly different depiction of the planes, specifically the exact nature of the Prime Material Plane. Something to do with Phlogiston. It's been a while...
From what I remember, yes (with maybe an exception for Eberron). Although it should be noted that Spelljammer and Planescape had a slightly different depiction of the planes, specifically the exact nature of the Prime Material Plane. Something to d
In TSR it was all pretty much the same. 3e FR actually made its own cosmology, divorced from the Great Wheel.
This was a good move, and Dragonlance should have done the same. Tying in Athas to the Wheel was also a bad idea.
Mystara...I'm not sure about, as it seems to have its own cosmology sometimes?
Greyhawk and the Wheel are a beautiful couple.
In TSR it was all pretty much the same. 3e FR actually made its own cosmology, divorced from the Great Wheel.This was a good move, and Dragonlance should have done the same. Tying in Athas to the Wheel was also a bad idea.Mystara...I'm not sure about
The Great Wheel is common to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape. Nentir Vale, Mystara/Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Birthright, Eberron, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun each have their own cosmologies. Ravenloft doesn't really have a cosmology. I can't remember what cosmology Council of Wyrms uses.
The Great Wheel is common to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape. Nentir Vale, Mystara/Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Birthright, Eberron, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun each have their own cosmologies. Ravenloft doesn't really have a cosmology. I can'
I've got a question: Is the Great Wheel common to all TSR/WotC printed settings?
From what I remember, yes (with maybe an exception for Eberron). Although it should be noted that Spelljammer and Planescape had a slightly different depiction of the planes, specifically the exact nature of the Prime Material Plane. Something to do with Phlogiston. It's been a while...
Eberron did not have anything resembling the Great Wheel.
From what I remember, yes (with maybe an exception for Eberron). Although it should be noted that Spelljammer and Planescape had a slightly different depiction of the planes, specifically the exact nature of the Prime Material Plane. Something to d
However - I would prefer the Planes to be represented as inaccessable by mortals.
Perhaps even "death" is the only way you can travel the Planes.
The Planes are realms of extremes - absolutes - and, as far as the Great Wheel, somewhat convoluted concepts of buffet philosophy.
I would prefer this approach. That it be stated plainly that any plane not specifically liveable be as absurdly lethal as possible and its inhabitability be stated plainly. Don't coyly hint at how fun visiting the City of Brass may be if it exists in a world of fire, where flesh melts and oxygen shouldn't exist.
I'm a big fan of the World Axis, or any setting where planes that PCs will be expected to go to at some point be somewhat survivable in. However, if there is a Great Wheel, then I would prefer this approach. That it be stated plainly that any plan
I like the Astral Sea containg all the divine realms, opposed by the Elemental Chaos ( gods verus titans/elder gods, mirroring real-world creation myths) and the corrupted Abyss-- with the Primal world/prime material plane at the center. I'm also a fan of the Lovecraftian Far Realm, and LOVE the truly mythical Feywild. Indifferent on the Shadowfell, though (could use more Ravenloft).
Agree with a lot of your points.
World Axis gave iconic-but-underused monsters a better home. Giants and Titans got a home in the Elemental Chaos. Faeries got the Feywild. Devils kicked out the LE Deities and made the 9 Hells their own. The Far Realm is mentioned in the DMG.
I prefer the Deities vs. Primordials conflict to the opposing alignment conflict. It gives Evil Deities like Zehir and Asmodeus a different role from Demons. It also removes the idea that Slaads hate Formians, but will equally respect Eladrin and Demons. That Bahamut and Tiamat could alternate between a cold war amongst each other, then ally against Elementals, speaks to a rich cosmology that mirrors RL mythology like Thor and Loki.
I think the existence of the Primal Spirits is a long overdue addition to D&D. So far, Primal PCs could worship Humanoid Deities, Faeries, or Elemental princes; but before 4ed, there were not many good nature spirits similar to what RL Native groups might revere.
To build off that, I really like that being a Deity means you're not just an Epic-level monster. Each plane of existence has their own form of extremely powerful beings, but only those from the Astral Sea are called Deities. There is a significant difference between a Demon Lord and a CE Deity, even if both reside in the Abyss and employ demons.
Despite having less infinite planes, the World Axis actually feels larger, since it's less uniform in what is infinite. The Astral Sea can have an infinity of different worlds in it, as the Elemental Chaos and the Abyss can have.
Finally, the small fact that the dead pass away from the Multiverse is a nice touch. Powerful beings can bind exceptional souls to their plane, but the majority of beings leave, to where no-one can answer. I like that there are some mysteries that cannot be solved.
Agree with a lot of your points. World Axis gave iconic-but-underused monsters a better home. Giants and Titans got a home in the Elemental Chaos. Faeries got the Feywild. Devils kicked out the LE Deities and made the 9 Hells their own. The Far Realm
> Mystara...I'm not sure about, as it seems to have its own cosmology sometimes?
Mystara had its own cosmology way back, yes. It was retconned into the Wheel cosmology later on.
> Mystara...I'm not sure about, as it seems to have its own cosmology sometimes? Mystara had its own cosmology way back, yes. It was retconned into the Wheel cosmology later on.
No one has insulted the World Axis cosmology, though it is entirely possible to do so, so please try to extend that same courtesy. This is a "which do you prefer" discussion, not a "sling ridiculous insults at the one you do NOT prefer" discussion. Stating that you dislike the Great Wheel due to the alignment restrictions is fine, and entirely part of the discussion. Terms like "abomination", "landfill", and "garbage" do nothing to help your point.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend you. Was just using a bit of ill-considered hyperbole to express my opinion.
In a less vehement way of speaking, I really don't like alignment and that negatively colors my opinion of the Great Wheel, perhaps undeservedly. Though, as others have mentioned, the overly tidy "OCD" presentation of the Great Wheel seems wholly unnatural and overwrought to me, so alignment isn't entirely to blame, either. Not that there's anything wrong with people who do like the Great Wheel, just don't expect me to get too invested in the planar adventures of a campaign that uses it.
In the end, I would like to see the Great Wheel be the default for Greyhawk, the World Axis be the default for Forgotten Realms, and Eberron return to its original "orbiting planes" model. Just my opinion.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend you. Was just using a bit of ill-considered hyperbole to express my opinion.In a less vehement way of speaking, I really don't like alignment and that negatively colors my opinion of the Great Wheel, perhaps undeservedly
I have no doubt that when I do incorporate the planes into DDN, it will be much like this. Most of the old Great Wheel planes are there, as are the World Axis planes. Sigil will sit directly at the core of it all, with portals or gates that reach through every plane all the way to the Far Realm, which I will leave as basically cut off aside from rare, unexplained portals (or something along those lines). The Ethereal will be the backdrop of all of the planes (much like "outer space" is the backdrop to galaxies).
I have no doubt that when I do incorporate the planes into DDN, it will be much like this. Most of the old Great Wheel planes are there, as are the World Axis planes. Sigil will sit directly at the core of it all, with portals or gates that reach thr
It defines D&D's planes for me, and 4e's radical alterations to it and many, many of the classic monsters and concepts therein struck me as too much change for... what reason? It threw out so many things without providing a replacement in many cases, it seemed to value the metagame idea of everything being designed for adventuring in which everything revolved around the PCs rather than being an organic cosmology, and it never really inspired me. Most of the best planar material for 4e ended up being later in the edition when a few freelancers did their level best to bring much of what was lost initially back into the 4e planar structure. It isn't always easy, and the conversion can be awkward given the 4e planes' departure from classical D&D, but the referencing and the respect to previous material was appreciated.
I cut my teeth on Planescape, even though I didn't start playing till 3e. And the planes and metaphysical concepts of the Great Wheel, as crazy and paradoxical as they could be at times, inspired and continue to inspire me like little else ever has. They got me into writing, and into freelancing.
Mind you, I'm not averse to working with different planar setups, given my work on Pathfinder's cosmology (which by virtue of open content and closed content, couldn't simply use the Great Wheel), but the Great Wheel serves as the inspirational baseline for me, and I would adore - absolutely adore - being able to write more material for it.
5e Planescape setting or Sigil book please? :D
Not even a contest: The Great Wheel. It defines D&D's planes for me, and 4e's radical alterations to it and many, many of the classic monsters and concepts therein struck me as too much change for... what reason? It threw out so many things without
The Great Wheel is common to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape. Nentir Vale, Mystara/Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Birthright, Eberron, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun each have their own cosmologies. Ravenloft doesn't really have a cosmology. I can't remember what cosmology Council of Wyrms uses.
Mystara got retconned into the Great Wheel in 2e (it was originally part of the basic D&D line rather than AD&D). Dragonlance was part of the Great Wheel in 2e (and could be assumed to be there in 1e by some readings). Birthright was part of the Great Wheel. Spelljammer was within the Great Wheel. Dark Sun was within the Great Wheel as far as Planescape was concerned, though one of the DS books presented a slightly tweaked version thereof. And Ravenloft was a demiplane within the Great Wheel.
Mystara got retconned into the Great Wheel in 2e (it was originally part of the basic D&D line rather than AD&D). Dragonlance was part of the Great Wheel in 2e (and could be assumed to be there in 1e by some readings). Birthright was part of the Grea
Forgiven. But for the record, Eladrin have existed since 2e. They were the iconic Chaotic Good outsider race in 2e and 3e both. The 4e "eladrin" are rather different in many ways. It would have been better IMO if they'd made the 4e creatures their own name rather than using that of a previous and iconic creature.
Forgiven. But for the record, Eladrin have existed since 2e. They were the iconic Chaotic Good outsider race in 2e and 3e both. The 4e "eladrin" are rather different in many ways. It would have been better IMO if they'd made the 4e creatures their ow
It defines D&D's planes for me, and 4e's radical alterations to it and many, many of the classic monsters and concepts therein struck me as too much change for... what reason?
To reduce the needless complexity and OCD-like alignment-classification that stifled quite a few people. The world axis is, while nicely defined, vastly more open to change around a little to better suit your own ideas. It's vastly less nailed-down, esp. with stuff that simply doesn't fit in a large amount of fantasy worlds (like the plane of clockword mega-ocd).
To reduce the needless complexity and OCD-like alignment-classification that stifled quite a few people. The world axis is, while nicely defined, vastly more open to change around a little to better suit your own ideas. It's vastly less nailed-down,
I have no doubt that when I do incorporate the planes into DDN, it will be much like this. Most of the old Great Wheel planes are there, as are the World Axis planes. Sigil will sit directly at the core of it all, with portals or gates that reach through every plane all the way to the Far Realm, which I will leave as basically cut off aside from rare, unexplained portals (or something along those lines). The Ethereal will be the backdrop of all of the planes (much like "outer space" is the backdrop to galaxies).
Looks good, though I would personally move the Feywild and Shadowfell "in" a ring, since one of the signature elements of those planes is that they directly border the Primal world(s). The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos would then expand to fill the top/lower half of their ring, respectively.
The thing I like about this setup is that it reads like different 2D map-projections of our 3D globe... trying to map the same information with different ways of abstracting the "missing" dimension. Our own world is FULL of variant 2D map projections, all of them trying to accurately depict the same 3D object.
Looks good, though I would personally move the Feywild and Shadowfell "in" a ring, since one of the signature elements of those planes is that they directly border the Primal world(s). The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos would then expand to fill the
As a devoted Planescape fan from 2nd Edition, After playing a Planescape campaign with the World Axis model, I greatly prefer the world axis model to tell the Planescape stories.
The great wheel has some bloat, and it's symmetry requires rarely used planes that take developers time to stat out. The Abyss, Celestia, Arborea, Mechanus, Limbo, the Nine Hells, I know exactly what to do with as far as writing adventures for, the others not so much.
The story kernels of the Beastlands and Ysgard can be scattered between Celestia, the Feywild, and locations connected with primal spirits.
Acheron, Gehenna and Carceri all step on each others toes for story space as agonistic hell prisons of lawful evil gods (which I think is better served by the abyss and nine hells anyway), while Pandemonium, the Shadowfell, and Hades take up the same space as existential hell of gloom and despair.
As a DM I much prefer the eerie desolation of Shom, the Sky courts of the Coatl and the Glittering city of Hestavar to the odd, unusable, and boring Arcadia, Elysium, and Bytopia respectively.
Island Dominions floating in the Astral sea I liked so much more. Give me one well designed prison plane, or one well fleshed out haunted evil plane.
As a devoted Planescape fan from 2nd Edition, After playing a Planescape campaign with the World Axis model, I greatly prefer the world axis model to tell the Planescape stories. The great wheel has some bloat, and it's symmetry requires rarely used
I would prefer this approach. That it be stated plainly that any plane not specifically liveable be as absurdly lethal as possible and its inhabitability be stated plainly. Don't coyly hint at how fun visiting the City of Brass may be if it exists in a world of fire, where flesh melts and oxygen shouldn't exist.
If you can't go there and do stuff ... why bother including it at all?
If you can't go there and do stuff ... why bother including it at all?
To clarify, you can make it a wheel, but make it one plane per alignment, combining planes as needed giving precedent to planes that a DM immeadietely knows what kind of story each one can provide. LN Mechanus, LG Celestia, NG Hestavar/Arcadia/Elysium, CG Arborea/Beastlands/Ysgard, CN Limbo, CE Abyss, NE Pandemonium/Hades/Carceri, LE Nine Hells
Perhaps Carceri is a location in Pandemonium, the Beastlands are a region of Arborea (although I prefer natural beasts to have primal spirit souls that stay in the material plane, while the races created of the gods have souls that travel the astral to go to the outer planes).
But definitely keep the Feywild and the Shadowfell as parrallel planes. Ghosts as being half in the shadowfell half out makes more sense than the Ethereal plane. And a trip through the fairy world shouldn't feel as awesome of a voyage as to the gates of hell or the shores of the holiest mountain.
To clarify, you can make it a wheel, but make it one plane per alignment, combining planes as needed giving precedent to planes that a DM immeadietely knows what kind of story each one can provide. LN Mechanus, LG Celestia, NG Hestavar/Arcadia/Elysiu
Also I always felt like the Feywild should be adjacent to the prime material and the elemental chaos while the Shadowfell should be adjacent to the prime material and the astral sea. It seemed like arcane magic was very elemental and flowed from the plane below through the Feywild into the natural world, while souls left this world and passed through the Shadowfell as they proceeded to the Astral sea. (so more like an S than being stacked on top of each other).
Just something I felt was a logical idea that was never mentioned.
Also I always felt like the Feywild should be adjacent to the prime material and the elemental chaos while the Shadowfell should be adjacent to the prime material and the astral sea. It seemed like arcane magic was very elemental and flowed from the
Looks good, though I would personally move the Feywild and Shadowfell "in" a ring, since one of the signature elements of those planes is that they directly border the Primal world(s). The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos would then expand to fill the top/lower half of their ring, respectively.
The thing I like about this setup is that it reads like different 2D map-projections of our 3D globe... trying to map the same information with different ways of abstracting the "missing" dimension. Our own world is FULL of variant 2D map projections, all of them trying to accurately depict the same 3D object.
The intention was to have the Feywild and Shadowfell bordering the prime, but I don't know how to correctly show my idea that the Ethereal connects everything. I know it's a 2D/3D thing, and that if you saw the whole thing from a distance it would in essence be a ball, with the ethereal surrounding and permeating all of it. Not too sure how to properly show that without the use of 3D rendering, which I have absolutely no experience in.
The intention was to have the Feywild and Shadowfell bordering the prime, but I don't know how to correctly show my idea that the Ethereal connects everything. I know it's a 2D/3D thing, and that if you saw the whole thing from a distance it would in
The previous cosmologies are awfully static and not organic at all.
It would be nice that the devs try to not have a human centric cosmology. Great wheel with its alignment focus or the world axis with its power source focus are locked in justifications for their existence. Why a specific non elemental plane couldn't be destroyed and not affecting directly any other plane ? What is the reason (other than be able to make a lovely symetric map) to have a limited number of non material planes ?
Ethereal could contain everything, allowing for dynamic interacting between different forces, introducing classic fantasy events like specific planes aligning and provoking one of these very bad things requiring heroes.
Another advantage with a dynamic cosmology is that spells like planar travel would effectively requires a travel, and teleporting to the same "location" wouldn't guaranty to arrive in the same plane.
I don't like aligned planes, but the worst thing for me with previous D&D cosmologies is being able to draw a map of them and having spells able to target and reach any plane without effort.
The previous cosmologies are awfully static and not organic at all.It would be nice that the devs try to not have a human centric cosmology. Great wheel with its alignment focus or the world axis with its power source focus are locked in justificatio
My preference would definitely be for the Great Wheel.
Some of the changes introduced in the World Axis were interesting like the re-focus of the Plane of Shadows and the Feywild but other changes for the sake of change just seemed arbitary and poorly thought out.
My preference would definitely be for the Great Wheel.Some of the changes introduced in the World Axis were interesting like the re-focus of the Plane of Shadows and the Feywild but other changes for the sake of change just seemed arbitary and poorly
My preference would definitely be for the Great Wheel.
Some of the changes introduced in the World Axis were interesting like the re-focus of the Plane of Shadows and the Feywild but other changes for the sake of change just seemed arbitary and poorly thought out.
could you elaborate, because I feel exactly the opposite.
could you elaborate, because I feel exactly the opposite.
Rather than a specific cosmology, I like the idea of plug-n-play cosmologies. Different frameworks (like a great wheel or a world axis), on which various planes can be hung (like Heaven, Hell, Elemantal, Astral).
Each published setting could have its own cosmology; otherwise, it would be up to the players. There'd be no assumptions like there was in 3e (and earlier) with the Great Wheel or 4e and the World Axis.
Rather than a specific cosmology, I like the idea of plug-n-play cosmologies. Different frameworks (like a great wheel or a world axis), on which various planes can be hung (like Heaven, Hell, Elemantal, Astral).Each published setting could have it
My preference would definitely be for the Great Wheel.
Some of the changes introduced in the World Axis were interesting like the re-focus of the Plane of Shadows and the Feywild but other changes for the sake of change just seemed arbitary and poorly thought out.
could you elaborate, because I feel exactly the opposite.
Planet Hell really got on my wick for a start and Asmodeus getting his power from the Abyss, and then what they did to the Blood War ie its finished and everything is fine now with no worries about an infinite number of Demons sitting around with nothing to do.
Random creatures getting the shaft was a big mistake too.
I guess they just wanted to simplify things and went about it in typical WotC fashion.
could you elaborate, because I feel exactly the opposite.[/quote]Planet Hell really got on my wick for a start and Asmodeus getting his power from the Abyss, and then what they did to the Blood War ie its finished and everything is fine now with no w
Games I ran tended to have the general rule of "All those cosmologies are true. That map is wrong." Everything bordered everything else in at least a couple places. You just need to know the right spells/tricks or get really lucky/unlucky. The simplest way to navigate was to use the Great Wheel as a refrence (as the last time I ran a game long enough for the planes to come up was 3.5) but the map was far from inclusive or accurate.
I like the idea of the Feywild always being right around the corner, you just need to know how to access it. I like the idea of there being a City in the middle of everything full of the doors that go everywhere. I like the idea of sailing your ship off the edge of the sunset and navigating a course beyond the stars. I like the idea of there being a great tower in the desert, and no matter how high you climb, the windows show that you're on the ground floor but have different scenery. I like the idea that if you dig too deep in the wrong place, you'll tear a hole in the material plane that leads to some place darker. And I like the idea of all of these things coexisting.
Games I ran tended to have the general rule of "All those cosmologies are true. That map is wrong." Everything bordered everything else in at least a couple places. You just need to know the right spells/tricks or get really lucky/unlucky. The si
I like the idea of the Feywild always being right around the corner, you just need to know how to access it. I like the idea of there being a City in the middle of everything full of the doors that go everywhere. I like the idea of sailing your ship off the edge of the sunset and navigating a course beyond the stars. I like the idea of there being a great tower in the desert, and no matter how high you climb, the windows show that you're on the ground floor but have different scenery. I like the idea that if you dig too deep in the wrong place, you'll tear a hole in the material plane that leads to some place darker. And I like the idea of all of these things coexisting.
Really, a 5e MotP should not waste too much time on describing cosmology, that is a waste of pages to describe a Wheel or Axis or Eberron's revolving coterminous planes. What matters is how the game is affected by these planar layouts.
Seemed like most of the planes in 4e are largely retreads or mash-ups of each other, or realms taken out and made their own islands in the Astral Sea. So just describe these based on theme (Celestial Realm, Fiend Realm, Fey Realm, Shadow Realm, etc).
What I'd love to see is more focus on different planes and different takes on the planes. The uninhabitable planes are a holdover from 1e, Planescape did a great with the Inner Planes supplement but there's more to be done there. Even if you need all sorts of protection to go to a plane, make sure there are cool things there.
For example, give me 2-3 possibilities for the Positive Material, ranging from the burning plane of healing light to the crystal forests of Eberron.
If Faerie the Feywild, or something brighter/darker? Where do the dead go? - give some options here too.
Don't give me a Lovecraft Far Realm and call it a day, give me some ideas on how to incorporate a Far Realms that is more like Dali paintings or these people's art:
Ravenmancer -> Where was this tower you speak of?Really, a 5e MotP should not waste too much time on describing cosmology, that is a waste of pages to describe a Wheel or Axis or Eberron's revolving coterminous planes. What matters is how the game is
It was in my first DM's homebrew game from back before I knew D&D had settings. We chased the BBEG guy there and fought him (we thought) halfway up. We had neglected to keep track of how many floors we had climbed to reach him and when we got out, we were in a place that only looked like home.
In the desert :PIt was in my first DM's homebrew game from back before I knew D&D had settings. We chased the BBEG guy there and fought him (we thought) halfway up. We had neglected to keep track of how many floors we had climbed to reach him and w
The Great Wheel is common to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape. Nentir Vale, Mystara/Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Birthright, Eberron, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun each have their own cosmologies. Ravenloft doesn't really have a cosmology. I can't remember what cosmology Council of Wyrms uses.
Mystara got retconned into the Great Wheel in 2e (it was originally part of the basic D&D line rather than AD&D). Dragonlance was part of the Great Wheel in 2e (and could be assumed to be there in 1e by some readings). Birthright was part of the Great Wheel. Spelljammer was within the Great Wheel. Dark Sun was within the Great Wheel as far as Planescape was concerned, though one of the DS books presented a slightly tweaked version thereof. And Ravenloft was a demiplane within the Great Wheel.
True, in the 2nd Ed Dark Sun Dragon Kings hardcover Athas is on an Alternate material plane, but still shares all the other planes (inner, outer, etc) with the Prime, yet in the 2nd Ed Spelljammer Spacefarer's Handbook they mention Athas is in a Closed Crystal Sphere. There's also a module where the Githyanki raid Athas. There is also an Athasian domain in Ravenloft.
As for Planescape, every pre-Eberron setting was part of it (Takhisis is actually Tiamat, and what the people of Krynn call the Abyss, is actually Avernus, the 1st level of Hell).
Mystara got retconned into the Great Wheel in 2e (it was originally part of the basic D&D line rather than AD&D). Dragonlance was part of the Great Wheel in 2e (and could be assumed to be there in 1e by some readings). Birthright was part of the Grea
I would prefer this approach. That it be stated plainly that any plane not specifically liveable be as absurdly lethal as possible and its inhabitability be stated plainly. Don't coyly hint at how fun visiting the City of Brass may be if it exists in a world of fire, where flesh melts and oxygen shouldn't exist.
If you can't go there and do stuff ... why bother including it at all?
It's where things come from. It's a place of refuge that those things go to.
If you can't go there and do stuff ... why bother including it at all?[/quote]It's where things come from. It's a place of refuge that those things go to.
To me the most important is that each campaign has the cosmolegy that best suits the campign setting.
Take for example dragonlance there is hardly any mention of tha planed at all.
also for people trying to fit the shadowfell and faywild into the big weel. I would place them in the same place as the prime planes. but they are dark and light reflections of the primes.
so they are more like alternative primes then seperate from the prime.
( in some game we took this further to the point where you could find the shadow fell version of yourselve)
To me the most important is that each campaign has the cosmolegy that best suits the campign setting.Take for example dragonlance there is hardly any mention of tha planed at all.also for people trying to fit the shadowfell and faywild into the big w
I see no reason the game has to choose. The only difference between the Great Wheel and the World Axis is the relationship of these planes to one another. In the Great WHeel, they Outer PLanes are rigidly mapped to border one another. In the World Axis, they are all floating about in the Astral Sea. Both can be true.
Just present each plane separately and then have a chapter called "Cosmologies" in which you offer several ways that these planes are can relate to one another. Let the reader choose which he likes, or offer him the tools to design his own cosmology.
Edited to add: And this is exactly how the designers said they want to do a Manual of the Planes, at GenCon just a few weeks ago.
This idea is bad ass! Which seminar was it in? I ask so that I can listen to it. I really hope they follow through with the idea wrecan mentioned. I think this could satisfy many players, much more so than releasing one or the other.
I've always played heavily in the old school planes. We traversed the planes in 1e and my favorite setting of all time is 2e's Planescape. Personally, I predict I'll adopt Next from what I've seen in the playtest. However, if I do, I will want to run a Planescape game with the Great Wheel cosmology in Next. I still run a 3.5e Planescape to this day (check out planewalker.com for 3.0 and 3.5e Planescape materials). If Planescape isn't a setting released in Next, but I adopt the rules of Next, then I'll convert it myself if planewalker.com doesn't beat me to it (they probably will).
If I adopt Next, I will run Planescape with the Great Wheel cosmology no matter what they release in the Manual of the Planes. My hope is that the information in the MotP for Next is usable to me to easily do so. My wish is that they release a MotP that most users can make to run their games as well. Will we get this? Probably, if they release the MotP as wrecan described.
This idea is bad ass! Which seminar was it in? I ask so that I can listen to it. I really hope they follow through with the idea wrecan mentioned. I think this could satisfy many players, much more so than releasing one or the other.I've always playe
Good call. It was short, but an excellent read! I believe this quote from Chris Perkins sums it up nicely:
D&D is not truly D&D without the Great Wheel, but for many players and DMs, the 4th Edition cosmology is their preferred “take” on the planes. We also have campaign settings with cosmological needs of their own. Our goal with D&D Next is to present a planar toolbox that allows us to borrow or assemble whatever cosmological elements suit our needs, and yours as well.
I know some were saying "Just because they plan to do it doesn't mean they will", but this looks like they both plan to do it and will do it. It seems like this is a major goal of theirs regarding cosmology.
Good call. It was short, but an excellent read! I believe this quote from Chris Perkins sums it up nicely: I know some were saying "Just because they plan to do it doesn't mean they will", but this looks like they both plan to do it and will do it. I
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). Heck, I just dislike the PoL fluff in general.
